Secret Shuffle?

Discussion in 'CPA/WOTC Magic Issues' started by cbearsbro, Jan 19, 2001.

  1. cbearsbro Nightwing

    Ya know, I read all the posts about great decks and 3rd turn kills, etc. Soooooo... is it me, or do you find yourselves holding hands that are either 1) All creatures/spells w/ no land in sight or 2) All lands with no creatures to speak of? Can't tell you how annoying that is. The creatures/spells/lands are all conspiring to hide together or something :(

    Anyone out there with a sure-fire way to shuffle and willing to share? ;)
  2. Darsh Corrupt CPA Member

  3. Hetemti The Wide-Awake Nightmare

    I allways sort my lands into one pile, my other stuff in a second, and overhand shuffle them for the first game. After games, I allways put all lands together, then all nonlands, and overhand shuffle eight times. Overhand and not riffle due to covers...if no sleaved it's eight riffle shuffles. Seems to work for me. After about 20 games the deck will go stale, and need to be decompiled, aired out, and rebuilt.

    All that, and I still get manascrewed. :p
  4. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Shuffling can be a problem. More important is what you do at the end of each game. If you just scoop up your permanents and slap them into your deck then you will proabbly be clumping your land together. I mana weave my cards in play, thens shuffle up.

    I always riffle shuffle.
    When I played CadBloom I spent about 4 hours a day goldfishing it to work out the numbers involved in the combo, and so spent basically four hours shuffling. Pretty soon I had to learn to riffle shuffle or die of boredom, because riffling is about 5 times faster than any other method. After years of riffling I can now shuffle a deck the required 7 times in about 10 seconds ... and snap a man`s arm with my little finger.

    Pile shuffling isn`t randomising, it`s just sorting by a method that you would have to be anally retentive toa buse by putting the cards in a position where a Pile shuffle will give you your god hand.

    Just try a new method, or better yet mix them up. if there is a problem wit how you shuffle than change it and see what happens. And make sure you aren`t clumping your deck when you pick your cards up.
  5. Apollo Bird Boy

    What exactly is "riffle shuffling"? I probably do it already, I just don't know what it is...
  6. Gerode Becoming a Lurker Again

    Where you take two halves of the deck of cards, bend the sides up, and have the cards fall in a somewhat alternating pattern. Your typical shuffle.

    I've shuffled like that for 3 years, and I'm still not good at it.
  7. Mars New Member

    Between games, I pick up my lands/spells in L-S-S order, then proceed to overhand shuffle the living hell out of my deck. I do so about 20 or 30 times. And I don't just cut in the middle - that will achieve nothing - sometimes I cut 1/3 way down, sometimes 75% of the way down - everywhere! After 20 - 30 times, well with the 5 minute allotted time, I have achieved the following:
    1) Sufficient randomization - no, not perfect L-S-S-L-S-S randomization, that's the realm of scumbag cheating deck stackers, but close enough. In fact, if you try my method, turn your deck over, and obsrve how random your deck is, you should find at most, a spellclump or landclump of 6 cards, only once. Maybe 2 5-card clumps, at worst, if you didn't find the above. And in true randomization, that's about as good as you're going to get.
    2) I don't have to look at my cards. Instead, I can use the time to shuffle AND look at my opponent's hands as he shuffles. If it were up to me abd many others, pile shuffling would and should be illegal.

    Then again, I have a friend who feels deck-stacking SHOULD be legal. WHY should bad draws determine who wins/loses? Then again, my friend's crazy. :)

    Beware of backshuffling. This is when your opponent reshuffles your deck into piles of 3 (if he's stupid), or piles of six, in order to break up your randomness. He's assuming you're a deckstacker (as he probably is), and doing so will order your deck into something like 20 spells, then 20 land, then 20 spells. And this is illegal. Don't hesitate to call a judge over if you suspect backshuffling. It's illegal because he's attempting to reorder your deck in a certain way. In my method, though, it won't work. I'd still call over the judge, however.

    Assuming you play honestly, you're going to lose one out of five games in Magic - you just are, thanks to bad draws, land clumps, or spell clumps, But that's not to say you can't go undefeated. It depends on how THOSE kinds of losses are spaced - two of those losses in a row are not recommended.

    Before the Paris Mulligan rule, you would lose one out of four matches. So learn how and when to Paris! Parising is more of an art form, really, but consistant practicing with your own deck can help to make it 2nd nature. Beware OVERparising though - it's quite annoying to drop an "average" hand, whatever that is, and then get a bad hand. And keeping a bad hand because you HATE going down to 6 cards, HOPING you'll draw into what you'll need, is even worse. I've seen even good players do this when under pressure, and their loss was fairly preordained.

    "Average" is a statistical construct. It's a line. Your hand will, 99% of the time, be on the good side or bad side of average, and this is where the 1 out of 5 thing comes in:

    1) You: good hand; Opponent: bad hand - You should win
    2) You: bad hand; Opponent: good hand - You should lose
    3) You: good hand; Opponent: good hand - even ground
    4) You: bad hand; Opponent: bad hand - neutral ground

    Assuming nearly equal quality in decks and opponents (ha!), there should be one out of four games you should win, and one out of four you should lose. Throw in the Paris mulligan, and you each have a way out. And it may come down to who Parises better. Or, whomever was more the gentleman such that they didn't feel the Wrath of Gizmo's Pinky!
  8. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Right on.

    Just shuffle your deck a lot.

    DO riffles, do overhands, just shuffle. You shuold achive an appropriate level of randomization.

    Do not bother with the "pile shuffle" except the first time you ever shuffle a newly-sorted deck. It's not randomizing anything, no matter how clever you think you are about putting the cards into the piles in a different order each time. (And if it's a tournament, I'll shuffle your deck for you, if you try this foolishness.)


    What I do, other than just shuffling like mad, is - after games, I mean - shuffle my graveyard and library together, then insert the nonland permanents at intervals in the deck, shuffle some more, then insert the land, and shuffle still more.

    Any land clumps/holes I get are merely the product of randomization...part of the game.
  9. Killer Joe Active Member

    I like to make four piles, then over hand shuffle each pile then combine two piles and over hand shuffle those and in the end I riffle shuffle the remaing two combined piles 7x's and then wake-up my opponent and play another game of control :).
    I also like to take my opening hand one card at a time and perfectly execute each card draw with a hard snap, (I actually worked on that snap, maybe I should've spent my time getting better at the game :().
  10. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Shuffle, shuffle, shuffle. Sometimes you get those situations you described in the first post anyway, that's when it's time to mulligan :)

    For me, in general, after a game I'd just slide all my permanents into a pile and riffle-shuffle a couple time (to space out the land), then depending on how big my graveyard is, I'll riffle-shuffle my first pile with it (or just combine/randomly insert the cards if the graveyard is small), and then riffle-shuffle the played cards with my library for 5-7 times.
  11. cbearsbro Nightwing

    Thanks for all the responses!!! Wow, people really do shuffle alot of different ways. Who knew? :p I know about mulligan. The problem happens when ya got the 1-2 lands and creatures to start and yer thinkin... "oooh, this is good" Then that's the last land/creature ya see for the next 3-4 turns. Or worse, when you're well into the game and get stuck to the point of having forced discards :( Heh, ah well, part of the game :)
  12. olwen New Member

    > Beware of backshuffling. This is when your opponent reshuffles your deck into piles of 3...
    > I'd still call over the judge, however.

    What would/should a judge do in this situation?
    I was in Grand Prix New Orleans and experienced this for the first time. I had a pretty bad hand the first game, and had to mulligan once in the second game.
  13. Mars New Member

    The judge can probably do nothing,'re pointing out to your opponent that you're not putting up with any crap. Ask the judge if your opponent MAY be shuffling your deck in order to DE-randomize it. If you're honest, he won't be, he'll only be randomizing it further. But if he pulls that stuff, it's because he assumes (incorrectly) that you're cheating. Like maybe HE is. In the end, you're telling him that YOU don't put up with that stuff. Even cheaters can be intimitaded. Good. screw em. Stick up for your friggin rights!
  14. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    As long as you shuffle properly, thoroughly randomizing your deck, no method of shuffling that your opponent uses will make it any more or less random unless he looks at the card faces.

    Calling a judge in this case will probably get you a warning. Your opponent is allowed to shuffle your deck, after all.

    But if your opponent is using an annoying or time-consuming shuffling method, feel free to do the same thing to his deck. You're allowed to, and maybe if that player is as annoyed as you are, he'll not do it again.
  15. Mars New Member

    Hmmmm. I didn't know about that warning stuff. Thanks, Chaos. Yet another case of where not knowing all the Magical tourney rules tends to bite me in the rear.

    Tell me this though. ONCE your opponent finishes shuffling/cutting your deck, can you do the same to your own deck, you know, randomize your own deck even further ONCE he's done "randomizing" it, i.e., if you suspect his "randomizing" was really some kind of "manipulation?" I thought I read somewhere that you canNOT do that. Or can you? Or can you and then he can put his greasy mitts on your deck AGAIN and continue his maniacal ways?

    Well, they have the Judges page link up on the front page of Meridian Magic. Perhaps I should go over there and read that. Yes, I think I will. Thanks again.
  16. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Strange as it seems, if your opponent chooses to shuffle your deck instead of cutting it, you only get to cut it when he/she is done.

    I'm not sure if I was clear on this point...

    If you honestly believe that an opponent is manipulating (rather than shuffling) your deck, you can request that a judge shuffle the deck for you. I only advise that you not do this simply because you "disapprove" of the shuffling method; only when you actually suspect cheating.

    Again, simply mimicing the other player's behavior ought to get your point across, that you're not going to be taken in by his tricks.
  17. Ransac CPA Trash Man

    While you opponent isn't looking while you're shuffling, switch your deck for an identical one that's been stacked.

    Ransac, cpa trash man
  18. Hetemti The Wide-Awake Nightmare

    One time my friend lost twice to my mono-black hippy deck. He left the room to get some CoP: Blacks. He almost fell out of his chair when he saw me drop a first turn Karplusan Forest. :D

    (Like he didn't know I always bring multiple decks, and that I despise C/RoPs, and will thwart them at every turn.)
  19. Ransac CPA Trash Man

    I think that my way is better than getting a whole new deck completely.

    Ransac, cpa trash man
  20. The Magic Jackal Veteran CPA Member<BR><font co

    I used to separate my played cards into a land-spell-spell order after each game, and then rifle shuffle that into the deck, then shuffle the deck many times. The problem I found with this is that some people accuse you of cheating when you sit there and pick up land-spell-spell. It's not illegal (I've had judges confirmed this many[/b} times) but I wouldn't reccomend it.

    The best way to shuffle, IMHO, is to pick up all your played cards, shuffle them into your unplayed cards, then do 1 pile shuffle. This should break up the mana pocket that occurs when you slap your deck together. Then just rifle shuffle until you can't rilfle shuffle no more.

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