Rarity versus Release

Discussion in 'CPA Voting Forum' started by Duel, May 31, 2000.

  1. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    Okay there's an ongoing debate between me and my brother, and it boils down to this: I don't play legal. Never have, never will. He does, on the other hand. Now when my $10 suicide black deck goes 50% with his $100 green stompy deck, He claims that he should have won, if I played legal. I claim that I should have one, if I spent $100 dollars on the deck. This is something that is not unique to me. which gives you a bigger advantage, rare, modern cards, or cheap, old cards?
  2. arhar Member

    Hmmm.

    Could you specify what exactly "don't play legal" means? Are you playing Type 1 versus Type 2, or Portal/Unglued? :)

    Imho, if $10 black deck with Erg Raiders, Unholy Strength, Carnophage, beats a T2 stompy deck, either it means that you are a much better player, or something's wrong with the green deck. I don't really get it how could you spend $100 on a stompy deck, unless you play with foil Gaea's Cradles.
  3. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I'm guessing it's a difference between Standard and non...

    It's hard to say based on just two creature-based decks as you gave in your example. In theory, every deck can be beat. Whether it's 1% of the time or 99% of the time is a different matter... I'm sure people will agree in that some cases, there is a "best" card for the same function (Bolt compared to Shock) which in many cases is the older card (not necessarily cheaper though). So if you're playing a deck that utilizes a lot of the older, best cards, you'll probably end up winning more than you are losing.

    And they don't have to be rare either; rare usually means a "unique" ability that really has to be used in a combo with other cards. In such cases the deck might roll over some deck types but curl up and die when faced with others (before sideboarding). I guess the exception is combo decks which don't care about the other player at all.

    So I guess the direct answer to your question is none of what you cited really give you an advantage. Only the best cards for the job will give you the advantage and they could be old (Bolt), modern (Rancor), or rare (Moxes).
  4. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    I play type 1, only without the bannings/restrictions. I play whatever I have lying around, except unglued or portal. Unglued because I hate the set, portal because I never bought any portal cards.
  5. Apollo Bird Boy

    If you play type 1 with no bannings or restrictions, you should beat a type 2 deck almost all the time. By the way, I think you're exaggerating a little, because most stompy decks are full of almost all commons. But man, if you're brother's type 2 stompy can go 50/50 with any type 1 no restrictions deck, he's the better player.

    Apollo
  6. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Just because he plays Type I doesn't mean he has all of the good cards or that they're right for the deck. Technically, I could play Type I but my best card is Library of Alexandria; is this the best to put in a Hatred deck (which is what he was playing). He could have Wheel of Fortune or Singing Tree and they still wouldn't really help in a Hatred deck.
  7. Seeker of Truth New Member

    Duel:

    Let's look at this in terms of the strongest cards, bar none, for each of your deck types.

    Suicide Black: Cards like Sarcomancy, Carnophage, Black Knight, Fallen Askari, Dauthi xxxx, Unholy Strength, Paralyze, Erg Raiders.

    Stompy: Cards like Rogue Elephant, River Boa, Ghazban Ogre, Wild Dogs, Elvish Archer, Giant Growth, Harvest Wurm, Spectral Bears, Symbiosis.

    Given these cards, I think the matchups should be basically even, with the edge going to whoever gets the most creatures and enhancers early on.

    Like the others, I don't know what your brother is using in a stompy deck that's so expensive, as a no-holds-barred stompy deck shouldn't even need Gaea's Cradle (unless you're packing Overrun).

    Anyway, I think the tendency here is to give the nod to the cheap old cards. If you look at some of the cards that came out in earlier sets that are no longer legal in Type II (Black Knight, Rogue Elephant, Unholy Strength), they tend to be stronger than their current counterparts (compare White Knight vs. Longbow Archer, for instance).

    To answer your question, though, I think that if you played Type II-legal suicide black, you'd probably lose to a Type II-legal stompy deck, but if you played a black no-holds-barred deck made up of powerful rares like Mox Jet and Juzam Djinn and Nether Void and Underworld Dreams, you should blow away any Type II-legal stompy deck that for some reason cost the same amount of money as your no-holds-barred deck.
  8. Hellion New Member

    Sometimes it's all down to a players descretion. A good deck is a good deck and bad deck is a bad deck, there's almost no way for a bad deck to beat a good deck.

    From personel experience, the best decks are mostly decks that run at least 25 commons. Of course such decks include weenie (all colors), burn, stompy or black discard weenie.

    This reminds me of an incident today:

    I met up with a new face at my magic playing area today and found out that he is a level 1 judge and plays Magic both in tournaments and casual.

    He is playing his "toned down" T2 Enchantress deck that either kills you with a Stroke or a Yayimaya Enchantress beatdown. I know that he is capable of building and playing a full tilt Enchantress/Stroke deck. In my view, there's no point in toning down a deck cause if it's a combo deck, I don't see the point in hiding it.

    I'm playing my T1 (but legal) discard weenie deck. It has 1 Eradicate and 1 Perish maindeck and of course, this matchup is a no brainer. However, he did managed to get his Worship out once after I used up my Perish, I concided laughing.

    He than made a side comment: "Your decks are meant for winning, not for playing."

    I get his rant though, he is just implying that I build decks to beat ppl not have fun. I had fun with my decks cause they use majority of commons and uncommons and seldom run more than 5 rares (this deck has only 3 rares, 2 Persecutes and a Vampiric Tutor) My $30 deck beat his $80 (yes even after toning down) too many times yes, but we had fun because once my hippy is slapped down and a few Hymns later, the clock is ticking.

    Trust me, my deck made him a better player today cause it made him think of decisions faster. I had fun, he also had fun but he didn't realise it. We joked about the games we had when we were having it, it's just that when he lost, he sulked a little.

    I know that some might see me as sick to play a T1 discard deck for fun. I play such a deck because for the several reasons,

    1. It makes a better player out of everyone that plays against it.
    2. It's not a combo deck.
    3. It's cheap and has the capacity to beat $3500 decks.
    4. It makes younger players sit up and notice because there are some cards they never seen b4.
    5. It really tests the opponent's deck for crucial flaws.
    6. My deck is not totally unbeatable. There are a few decks that can beat it consistantly and those are the best decks ever made, doesn't matter if it's T1, extended or T2.
    7. When I lose using this deck, I always applaude my opponent. I NEVER sulk.
    8. It gives older Magic players the nostalgic feeling and we start talking about old deck types ect....

    I would take my deck into any T1 tourney anyday cause it is a deck that will blow those Mox,Lotus,P9 players away. And I have fun because when I lose, I KNOW WHY.
  9. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    Here's the bottom line, when my brother says "stompy" he doesn't dick around with 2/1's or 3/3. His idea of stompy is mana makers and thorn elementals, with gaea's cradles and killer bees to finish.
  10. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I thought "Stompy" was a mana-curve green deck like Sligh originally was (and is?). If you have a bunch of mana accelerators (Elves, land, whatever) and then basically fatties, isn't it another type of deck? Like Sligh is to Deadguy Red?
  11. Multani Treetrunk Guy

    Tag Guard

    Originally there was no stompy.
    It was fast small creature decks and fast large creature decks. Stompy took it one step farther.
    It combined the overwhelming numbers of the small creature decks with the power of large creature decks with the speed of any fast creature deck. Thus, Stompy was born.
    A good stompy decks can beat all but the fastest decks.
    Mana curves used to be provided by elves, but today, lands and enchantments provide that curve. My stompy has no elves whatsoever. I just couldn't find room for them!
    So the point is, stompy could probably beat Hellion's discard, unless he was able to whip up a first turn hymm.
    Also, I usually win duels with only a few creatures.
    :D
  12. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    My orignal point was that my black deck cost me $11.25. His green crush, or whatever, cost around $100. And he claims since I'm t1 I have an advantage.
  13. Multani Treetrunk Guy

    Tag Guard

    Well, your brother has a point.
    Type 1 cards are obviously more powerful than type 2 cards.
    In a way you do have an advantage, sorta.
    Also, I don't think old cards are cheap.
    However, if you beat him with a $10 deck, you obviously have a better deck. My stompy is around $20, maybe more.
  14. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    My stompy holds 2 rares: elvish archers. Just caus I use four lotus petals and four elvish spirit guides, I don't think I have an advantage. j/k. My black has black vise and DARK RITUALS! He has the nerve to claim my dark rituals are unfair!
  15. Hellion New Member

    Argh, just tell your brother that there are enough decks in Type 2 to beat his 100 buck stompy deck. If you were to build a Type 2 deck, wat would it be?

    For me, I have beaten stompy many times because even though I don't play it, I know it's flaws. Also since my playing area has many many many stompy decks, I always build anti-creature control decks.

    Besides, such decks are decks that rule anyway.
  16. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    I dunno, his is an excellent deck. I have troulbe beating it when I use t1 (of course, I suck) and t2? forget it. Maybe replenish. Maybe. If it's quick enough.
  17. Multani Treetrunk Guy

    Tag Guard

    Geez stompy...How to beat stompy....:D

    Fast counterspells.
    I counter your creature, but you can draw two cards next turn... :D

    Burn.
    Turn 1: Mountain, Lightning Bolt
    Turn 2: Dwarven Ruins, Shock
    Turn 3: Mountain, sac Dwarven Ruins,2 Bolts and a Sonic Burst.
    Turn 4: Sonic Burst, Bolt.

    Now I don't think stompy can kill by turn 4.
  18. Apollo Bird Boy

    Okay. Stompy is what Spiderman said. It's a fast weenie deck based on a mana curve. It's biggest creature might be a 3/3, but one that costs 1-2 mana like Rogue Elephant. It might include 4 Llanowar Elves, but that's it for fast mana. A real Stompy can kill by turn 4. It is nothing like what Multani or Duel said. Such fast mana, huge creature decks are usually pretty weak. Killing the elves early on wrecks the deck. Drawing a bad mix of fast mana and creatures will kill the deck. Any deck in the current type 2 will destroy it.

    As for the actual question in this article, I'd say that cheap older cards should beat a deck like this. It mainly comes down to what deck you build with that $11. All things being equal, however, you have an advantage.

    Apollo
  19. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    right, as for burn, well, it's hard to do that becaus it uses 4 BOLTS AND TWO SONIC BURSTS and given a normal distribution in a 60 card deck, you will not get them. He can, however, get one river boa, one rancor, and apply a beatdown liberally with less trouble.
    And my fast counterspell has about a 30/70 win/loss rate. It all depends on HOW MANY creatures he casts on turns three and four.
    And, no, he doesn't RELY on big creatures. He just finishes people off with them. *sigh* you'd have to see it.
  20. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Wanna win Type Zero every time? You can get Channels pretty cheap, I hear. You're bound to have some Fireballs Lying around.
    You'll need to make a few 1st-turn mana though... to get that 100% win rate. :p

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