Raging Goblin Sucks

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Istanbul

Guest
Raging Goblin has synergy with Mogg Flunkies.
But Goblin Sledder, Mogg Raider, and Mogg Fanatic have BETTER synergy with Mogg Flunkies, because they have an ability that's relevant past the turn in which they come into play.
 
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Gizmo

Guest
Originally posted by TheCasualOblivion
I still disagree. Flunkies is a two drop, so I prefer to pair them with Goblin Warchief(all goblins gain haste, this includes itself) and Ronin Houndmaster. Flunky helpers would be played after the flunkies, so being a three drop is just right, and much more helpful at that point than a 1/1 that can only attack.
The use of a 3cc vs 1cc card would depend on the tempo of the deck you're playing - it's a question of monster or monster + burn on your third turn. I'm not trying to argue that Raging Goblin is a good card, I'm just trying to argue that it's not utter trash. MOSTLY trash, but not totally.
 
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TheCasualOblivion

Guest
tempo isn't really that relevant. Very few turn 2-3 Creatures that can withstand Flunkies and Houndmaster, no need to burn them. They block, stuff dies, and my burn gets saved for later. They don't block, they take 5, and I could really care less if they attack, and I still got the burn if I want it later.

Maybe the Raging Goblin might have a place in a bad tournament-style deck. But still, it really isn't a tournament level card. If you are playing casual, like me, its more important to think about the mid game since I'm not trying to screw my opponent completely or win every game within 5 turns.

In a bad sligh style deck, Raging goblin is a staple, along with Spark elemental, lava spike and other assorted trash. The sort of deck that tries to be like the tournament red decks, but doesn't have the guts or resources to pack Jackal Pup, Goblin Lackey, Fireblast, Cursed Scroll ect. Is that the sort of deck you're thinking of.
 
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Gizmo

Guest
Originally posted by TheCasualOblivion
Maybe the Raging Goblin might have a place in a bad tournament-style deck.
Like the one I made that won 2 out of 2 PTQs and 1 GP, netting a total of around $4500 in prizes in three tournaments?

In Rathi block neither Suq Ata nor the Bushido guy were available, but had they been available I would have played the Raging Goblin ahead of them. There wasn't a slot for a 3cc creature in that sligh deck, whereas there was a slot for 1cc creatures. Playing a 3cc haste guy would have wrecked the consistency of the tempo of my first two turns, which is essential. The 'hasty damage' card in the deck was Maniacal Rage, which is effectively a 2/2 haste for R1 and had the added advantage of taking the creatures it enchanted out of Shock/Kindle or easy blocking range. Maniacal Rage was so effective Kai Budde referred to it specifically as the card that defeated him in the Grand Prix final, and in one of the rounds of the PTQ I won Maniacal Rage won me a game by operating as removal on an opponent's Tradewind Rider.
 

Ferret

Moderator
Staff member
Yes, yes. This is all fine and good. Raging Goblin may or may not be good - HOWEVER, no one has answered my question yet:

What was that one card from The Dark that had Goblin in its name, but wasn't a goblin? It had trample, but it required your oponent to have a mountain to attack him and it took an extra turn to untap? This is really starting to bug me. WHAT WAS THE NAME OF THAT STUPID CARD????

-Ferret

"Being 6,500 miles away from my collection is really frustrating!"
 
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TheCasualOblivion

Guest
Gizmo--

Kind of talking about the present. What makes Raging Goblin bad in my opinion isn't as much any fault or quality of the card itself but what it gets compared to. Its just that Red has a zillion better one drops, and the card gets played a hell of a lot more than it should, usually by people who don't know any better.

Tempest Block Constructed itself had Mogg Raider, Jackal Pup, and Mogg Fanatic as 1 drops, all superior to Raging Goblin. I've never paid more than passing attention to the tournament scene, but I'm curious if there ever was a non-Vintage deck that required more than 12 1cc creatures. I remember playing during those days. I played in a little out of the way store against mostly 14-17 year old kids, and in those days, net-decking wasn't really the science it is now, and least not there. There was a fairly vibrant tournament scene there, though I'm sure it was pretty far from anything you would call competitive. These were kids who were building decks they called Sligh, who could only afford 1 Cursed Scroll(I never saw a deck with more than 2 ever). The same went for Ball Lightning, you just didn't see people with 3 or 4 of them. They also tended to be too scared of the drawbacks to play cards like Jackal Pup or Fireblast. I was beating the crap out of them playing a 4-Color, 20 Dual land Counterspell/Wrath of God/Big Creature deck that could only be called casual and pretty far from being either tournament competitive or legal(legal in anything aside from T1). Years later, at another store, during Invasion block, I ran into kids playing these sort of decks again, this time in Extended. It really wasn't any different, the decks weren't any better. I'm not sure I've ever really seen or played against a decent Sligh deck.

As far as the card being good in a specific tournament environement, I can freely admit that I wouldn't know or care anything about that. There are other cards, take for example Disciple of the Vault or Arcbound Ravager for example, that are absolutely game breaking in tournaments, and are completely WORTHLESS in the sort of games I play. In a hyper-focused deck where 3 mana is too much to pay for anything, maybe you would need the stupid Goblin. Not everybody plays those games, and if your deck doesn't require you to win in 5 turns, Raging Goblin is an absolute liability in a deck.

I've been playing this game since 4th Edition/Homelands. I've sold two collections, and taken a few breaks, but I've been around that long. I've usually been the best among the circle of friends I've played with. Having said that, I can honestly admit I've never been any threat to a serious tournament player. I can also say I've never had any interest or intention of being one. I'm pretty sure if I had the inclination, I could learn what I need to know in short order, add it to my long experience and do quite well. But I find the Tournament Style of magic not really any fun. First off, I've always been religiously zealous about building my own decks. I have looked over the years at tournament decks and reports to learn about how mechanics like Card Advantage, efficiency, synergy, and speed work, so I can apply them to my decks. Tournaments also are good for learning about cards my casual preferences have overlooked. That being said, I build original decks, and have never used the internet to build a deck in my entire playing life. The other thing is I've never really been inclined to build decks that prevent my opponent from playing the game, which is what pretty much every tournament deck I've ever seen tries to do. I've also noticed that tournament decks when built wrong, can be outlasted and fall flat when they run out of tempo. That always ticked me off, and I usually sacrifice that speed in order that my deck is just as scary on turn 30 as it is on turn 3.

As I've said before, I've been playing for about 10 years. I've played in a grand total of 1 sanctioned tournament, which was an Apocalypse booster draft where I found out you could net deck as much in a draft as in constructed. This is completely by choice. Give me my Timmy cards like Shivan Dragon and Weatherseed Treefolk and I'm happy beating on us other saps and teaching the newbies how to play.

You seem rather proud of your tournament prowess. You like to talk about it a lot. It isn't the only way to play this game, and this is the Casual Player's Alliance after all.

I have a deep and abiding love for Mogg Flunkies. They're currently one of the stars in my R/B aggro deck which is currently the best deck I own. I have learned from playing that deck that they have a fantastic synergy with creatures with haste, since people tend to burn everything but the Flunkies, and dropping a Haste creature alongside a lone Flunkies is generally very effective. I could build this deck to dominate starting from turn 1, and go for turn 4-5 kills. That's not the way we play in my world. I pair my flunkies with Ronin Houndmaster, which is dangerous beyond the first 5 turns. If I were to go mono-red someday, I'd look at Goblin Warchief in a goblin deck, or Slith Firewalker in a generic Red deck for Flunkies Support.

A 1/1 creature takes 20 turns to deal 20 damage. A 2/X creature takes 10 turns. That is an absolute world of difference, and the difference is great enough that a 1/1 creature is never really effective or efficient at dealing combat damage. 1 drops either need the magic 2 power to be dangerous, or have a killer ability, like Mogg Fanatic, Llanowar Elves, Mother of Runes and just being able to attack for 1 is a bonus. There are enough of them that there really isn't ever a need for Raging Goblin.

Raging goblin is a 1/1 that can only ever attack. Just doesn't get the job done.
 

Ferret

Moderator
Staff member
Originally posted by Gizmo
Rock Sled?
THANK YOU! Goblin Rock Sled! A horrible card (when it was printed - I'm not sure if they've changed the creature type yet). It was a Goblin that wasn't a Goblin. It was unaffected by Goblin King and Goblin Mage (or was it Wizard? My memory is terrible), but it was also unaffected by Tivadar's Crusade - but, who cares? It was terrible...

-Ferret

"My fav 1 drop Goblin: Goblin Baloon Brigade. 'nuff said!"
 
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Gizmo

Guest
Some cards are really only good in tournaments, these tend to be cards where the the card is generally weak but has a very very slim upside. I think of things like Daze - Daze is pretty terrible against bad players, but against good players it's close to amazing. The whole Skies deck archetype in fact, would beat good decks and good players, but lose to bad decks or bad players, because it's disprution was aimed very clearly at people who were playing to the science of magic.

I compare it to a fight with weapons, if you showed a barbarian a fencing sword he wouldn't know what to do with it, and he'd want his bigass chopping sword because the epee is no use at all against somebodt running at you with a shield and a big axe. But similarly if you asked somebody to duel with that big sword though, they wouldnt stand a chance because their opponent would move to quickly and slice them pieces.

It's about understanding that some weapons (and cards) are useful to different people in different circumstances. Simply saying 'Raging Goblin sucks' ignores the fact that it does have a unique ability for it's casting cost and that somebody somewhere will find it to be the 1-drop creature that best helps their deck win. I know I did - I tested Mogg Raider and Raging Goblin was much better for the deck. I'm happy to say 'yeah you probably don't see much point to Raging Goblin' but that's ok, because I don't see much point to Soul Warden but people still put her into decks, and I still laugh whenever somebody casts one. But I'm NOT the one making the overarching statements that Raging Goblin is terrible all the time.

I repeat... I'm not saying Raging Goblin is good. In fact quite the opposite seeing as I defined it as 'a two-star card that becomes 3-star when used in a deck with Mogg Flunkies'. So that's basically me saying "they're poor, but in some decks they're ok". But the original comment was 'anybody who plays with it is a moron'. Well if being a moron nets me $4,500 then where do I sign for the frontal lobotomy please?

I've spent the past two weeks playing against a couple of red decks at the shop, and there's been a LOT of times that I've found myself saying 'please dont be holding Raging Goblin' or 'I've won unless your next card is Raging Goblin'. Now if the card was terrible, I wouldn't be saying that, but I was.
 
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TheCasualOblivion

Guest
All that being said, I will try to make the point again that a lot of people use Raging Goblin when they shouldn't be using it. The card gets used wrong, or put in a deck for the wrong reasons and tends to have a reputation it doesn't deserve.
 
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Gizmo

Guest
I didn't realise it had a reputation.

If people play it for any other reason than synergy with Flunkies or a similar card, then they'd have to work really hard to convince me of it's usefulness.
 

Ferret

Moderator
Staff member
You know what I really like about Magic? The way that any card can be good under the right circumstances - also, that a deck that uses a lot of "bad" cards together in a way that gives them amazing synergy can be considered a "good" deck.

And the best part is that every four months a new set is released which offers whole new avenues to aproach for old cards that used to be "bad" and new cards that can shut down cards that used to be "good"

It's an amazing game.

-Ferret

"Feel the wrath of my Sorrow's Path Deck!"
 
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jorael

Guest
Originally posted by Ferret
You know what I really like about Magic? The way that any card can be good under the right circumstances - also, that a deck that uses a lot of "bad" cards together in a way that gives them amazing synergy can be considered a "good" deck.

And the best part is that every four months a new set is released which offers whole new avenues to aproach for old cards that used to be "bad" and new cards that can shut down cards that used to be "good"
You just gave the most important reason why I like Magic more than any other game.

The fact that synergy (or theme) is accomplished by not just putting the best cards together, but forces you to think about your card choices is very challenging. Playing the game is fun, but constructing decks is too. I can enjoy myself for hours by making new decks, look for new ideas or tune current decks!
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Maybe I should put this thread as the first forum thread to be linked from the front page... :)

Ferret: You should play your Sorrow's Path deck against train's (or compare decklists...) :)
 

Ferret

Moderator
Staff member
Hmmm...I might have to dig it out when I get home. I loved that deck. People would watch me play me little En-Kor Critters and then the Mogg Maniac and they'd say "Oh, one of THOSE decks" and then the Plan Nine From Outer Space card would hit the table and jaws would drop - of course this was before VIth Edition rules changed how damage was dealt...it might need a little tweaking to make truly sick...

-Ferret

"I'm going to go hang my head in shame. I was just killed by Sorrow's Path..."
 
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