Question about Tribe decks

[TheCasualOblivion]

Just for philosophical purposes, I'm trying to put together an understanding of which tribes work, which do not, and how they rank. I don't play in tournaments, or against tournament players, and I don't read decks outside of this site. I'd just like anyone to add to my list of opinions.

As far as I can tell, there are 6 power creature types, 1 of each color, and one that just appeared with Kamigawa The power types are:

Red: Goblin
Green: Elf
White: Rebel
Blue: Merfolk (old school players know what I'm talking about)
Black: Zombie and thanks to Kamigawa and my own Rat deck, I think we can add rats to this.

Goblins Elves and Rebels have a proven track record, and I don't think Zombies are that far behind. Blue Merfolk is an old school deck type, and the killer nature of that deck is not based on the Merfolk themselves, but the fact of there being enough passable ones with Lord of Atlantis, River Merfolk and Coral Merfolk to be nasty when backed by counterspells. Especially with counterspells like Thwart, Force of Will, Daze, and the ease in which blue can give them an island. Theres even a 1/1 Merfolk that'll do that.

As for the rats, I think Nezumi Shortfang and Marrow Gnawer are enough to put the Rat deck over the top. My rat deck is feared by most everyone who knows it, and those two cards are the bomb cards. Nezumi Shortfang, unless killed, can easily win the game all by himself, and Marrow Gnawer's true power isn't so much producing rat tokens as much as it is giving all rats fear. Especially giving Swarm of Rats fear. For example, I have 1 Ravenous Rats and 2 Swarm of Rats in play, I then drop Marrow Gnawer, and attack for 9 damage with fear. With Ravenous Rats, Chittering Rats, Swarm of Rats, Nezumi Cutthroat, and Nezumi Bone-Reader there are enough Rats to build a power deck. There isn't a lot of variety, since there aren't that many good rats, and the good ones mostly force discards, which requires you to build a discard deck, but if you have 4 of the good ones, they can hold their own really well in a discard based deck.

Right below these I would put Slivers. I don't have 100% faith in slivers. The thing with them is that if you leave them alone, they get out of hand in a hurry, but a deck that messes them up can do just fine. I haven't seen a sliver deck yet that could survive heavy disruption, or pack the disruption itself to establish control.

I haven't seen or heard of a deck based on Beasts, Soldiers, or Wizards or Clerics that is in the same league as these decks. Beasts are slow, and I haven't seen the card that would put Soldiers or Wizards over the top. Clerics seem like an intriguing choice. I might almost consider a strong cleric deck possible, though I have yet to see one. A couple of cards like the Cleric Avatar with Spirit Link and remembering that the Order of Leitbur/Ebon Hand have the cleric type make me suspect I might be wrong about them.

As for the others, some quick opinions, excuse me if I leave some Tribes out:

Angels/Vampires/Dragons--too slow
Knights--a lot of good ones, but no tribal bonuses.
Birds--I haven't seen a bird deck I would call better than just plain bad.
Snakes--Not quite there yet. Kamigawa makes these interesting. With some help from the next two expansions, Snakes might be something.
Samurai--As with snakes, though Kamigawa is short on buff cards for Samurai. With the exception of some slow legends, not a lot to make having a pile of Samurai better, just like the Knights.
Spirits--Another Kamigawa introduction. Again, not a lot of synergy yet. An open possibility to see these break open in future sets though.

Those are all I can really think of.

Please add to this

 

[Istanbul]

You forgot Soldiers and Wizards.
Soldiers have a plethora of nasty combat tricks.
Wizards don't do much swinging in general, but a good wizard deck can utterly lock down the game until the Wizard player is good and ready to kill you.

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

Could you elaborate?

What are the soldier tricks, and are they on the same level as the tricks an Elf or Goblin deck can throw.

What is the wizard lockdown. I see the cards that help with this, but how does that deck run. It seems too slow.

 

[Force of Will Smith]

There is no specific wizard lockdown--unless you mean Ertai, Wizard Adept and Arcane Laboratory.
Just many of them happen to have heavy control.

Bounce Permanents, Remove cards from their library, draw cards, rearrange your deck, give your creature protection from all creatures. Wizard decks are just more difficult to built, and in general people are lazy and want to fix a quick fix.

My wizard deck, along with my zombie deck can intentionally destroy all my creatures and re-establish board control. That's the kind of tribal youre looking for.

Soldier tricks are mainly pre-combat..

say you control a 1/1 that you dont want to die. I attack with a deftblade elite.. making you block him.. then before combat starts, i tap 1 soldier and 1 catapult squad. The blocking creature takes 2 damage and dies before anything happens.

If youre on the recieving end sometimes it's better.

They attack with a 10/10 flying creature. When you declare blockers, you tap 4 soldiers to deal 4 damage to it(2 from a catapult, and the other 2 from 2 crossbow infantry) , pump 5 mana into a ballista squad, dealing it another 4 damage. Then you block it with your 2 Longbow Archers, who have first strike and can block fliers.
The creature dies, your soldiers come out unscathed.

Then you toss in some crusades.. and the soldier warchief.. making yout 1/1 soldier tokens 3/5's... then raise the alarm soon reads...
1W instant put 2 4/7 soldier tokens into play.

etc.etc.

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

still doesn't sound like wizards or soldiers are in the top tier. Both of those strategies sound slow. Elves, Goblins, Merfolk, and my Rat deck are a hell of a lot faster than the decks you describe seem to be, and against a slower deck, I would think a Rebel deck could bury you in Rebels without much hassle. Not really familiar enough with Zombie decks to tell how they would rank against Soldiers or Wizards.

I'm not saying you can't build a good wizard or soldier deck. I'm just saying that I haven't seen anything that would make me believe they are in the same class as Goblins, Elves, Rebels, Merfolk, Zombies and Rats.

 

[Oversoul]

Originally posted by TheCasualOblivion
I'm not saying you can't build a good wizard or soldier deck. I'm just saying that I haven't seen anything that would make me believe they are in the same class as Goblins, Elves, Rebels, Merfolk, Zombies and Rats.

While we're looking at it that way, what makes you think that any of those other types are anywhere near the power level of Goblins? The others are not horrible, but Goblin decks are so good that they are able to compete in Vintage and Legacy (and Goblin Recruiter is even banned in Legacy).

As far as creature types that are casually viable to build decks around, here is what comes to mind for me.

Goblins (I don't think anyone wants to argue against this one)

Merfolk (countermagic and powerful enchantments like Opposition and Curiosity make for Merfolk fun)

Zombies (with potent attackers like Carnophage as well as some really strong new cards like Call to the Grave)

Elves (that Timberwatch Elf is pretty evil)

Slivers (countersliver is nice for aggro-control, but other strategies have potential as well)

Rebels (once Lin-Sivvi is out, things get crazy)

Soldiers (OUTPOST! Oh, and there are other tricks...)

Saprolings (not typically a creature-based deck anyway, but still based on a creature type)

Rats (I know little about it, but some cool new cards for this archetype have come out lately)

Clerics (I don't personally like these guys, but they were pushed a lot in Onslaught block and were not bad before that)

Wizards (another one I don't know so much about, but I've seen it do well)

And then there are others. Most types can be exploited in some way. I've decks centered around beasts, dragons, and even Chimeras (Chimeras become pretty powerful under Lifeline). We could go on for a long time about all the decks based around creature types...

 

[Force of Will Smith]

actually soldiers are fast as hell and almost all cost 1-2 mana, have first strike and a 2nd ability.

Wizards:

Turn 1: Imagecrafter
Opponent: plays a 900,000/900,000 myr
Turn2: Play a riptide biologist.
Opponent attacks with the 900,000/900,000 myr. Block with the biologist use imagecrafter to change myr to a beast... oh wait... biologist has pro:beasts.. absorbing any non flier/non pro:blue creature turn 2 is pretty fast.

I like the whole spirit kamigawa thing but i wanna see more traditional creature types developed... some of the akki are kind of playable.. one even speaks of infinite red mana with a card or 2.

 

[Oversoul]

Originally posted by Force of Will Smith
absorbing any non flier/non pro:blue creature turn 2 is pretty fast.

Well, non flier/non pro: blue/non-shadow/non-trample/non-untargetable/non-unblockable/etc.

 

[Force of Will Smith]

I think it could still stop a trampler.. and shadow and unblockable would be the same thing

 

[Oversoul]

502.9d - Assigning damage from a creature with trample considers only the actual toughness of a blocking creature, not any abilities or effects that might change the final amount of damage dealt. [CompRules 2003/07/01]
Example: A 6/6 green creature with trample is blocked by a 2/2 creature with protection from green. The attacking creature's controller must assign at least 2 damage to the blocker, even though that damage will be prevented by the blocker's protection ability. The attacking creature's controller can then choose to assign the rest of the damage to the defending player. [CompRules 2003/10/01]

 

[NorrYtt]

I think the original poster is trying to access tournament viability of Tribal decks.

Spirits (all colors, no artifacts) - Contrary to your orignal post, Spirits and Spirit + Arcance (Spiritcraft) is all about synergy. Since Spiritcrafters like Thief of Hope and Kodama of the South Tree trigger with no mana, the deck starts to work like an engine when it gets a developed board. Zuberas lend themselves to a combo deck. That said, Spirits do lack the power level of say Goblin (who can tear it up in most any format) and Elves.

Wizards (Predominately blue, all other colors) - the lock is Patron Wizard + Voidmage Prodigy. The rest is picked up by Temporal Adept and Opposition. These guys are slow and vulnerable but like most tribes when they get out of hand it's a soft lock.

Beasts (green / red, splash black) - Beasts win with superior fatties and there's plenty to choose from: Arc-Slogger, Molder Slug, Ravenous Baloth, Avarax, Tephraderm, Blastoderm, and Spiritmonger. These guys are backed up by Canopy Crawler, Krosan Warchief, and the board dominating Contested Cliffs. Cliffs + Monger is brutal. In short, they usually can't live through the other tribes' tempo but they are an excellent choice for multiplayer.

If you are interested in what tribes beat what and who would dominate in play, you could try Tribal Wars on MtGO. You could probably just ask people there, observe games, and just collect opinions. The results are skewed, though. If black gets to play Engineered Plague/Tsabo's Decree/Extinction, it's pretty hard to think anything other than a black tribe would be best. Maybe a Tribe that can counter spells (Wizards) or splash black (Elves) can keep up, but I doubt it.

Also, Skullclampable Tribes > nonSkullclampable Tribes.

 

[Oversoul]

Originally posted by NorrYtt
I think the original poster is trying to access tournament viability of Tribal decks.

It would depend on the format. And none was specified...

In Vintage, the only competitive "tribal" deck I know of is Food Chain Goblins.

In other formats, that's not true...

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

1. Am I asking about the tournament viability of Tribe decks??

Yes and no.

I could care less about tournaments, so it isn't really any concern of mine what tribe decks could compete in tournaments or what not. On the other hand, how well a tribe deck could do in a tournament goes a long way towards measuring how strong a tribe deck could get.

2. Other than that, I really haven't heard an explanation of a Soldier deck yet.

3. As far as Rats go, this is the Rat deck I'm currently playing in real life:

4 Nezumi Shortfang/Stabwisker the Odius
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Swarm of Rats
3 Chittering Rats
3 Marrow Gnawer
4 Hypnotic Specter

4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Rend Flesh
3 Dark Banishing
2 Consume Spirit

19 Swamp

It could use some work probably, but it does pretty well. The discard is pretty relentless, and is a strength of the Rats. The Specter is just too powerful a discarding tool to leave out. Swarm + Marrow Gnawer has won games where I never had a living Shortfang or Specter. There aren't as many good rats as there are other types, but Marrow Gnawer and Nezumi Shortfang can break games open, and they lend well to a strong discard theme. For the record, I rarely get that much use out of Marrow Gnawer's rat producing ability. What wins games much more often is the "All Rats gain Fear" ability

 

[mythosx]

Originally posted by TheCasualOblivion
Could you elaborate?

What are the soldier tricks, and are they on the same level as the tricks an Elf or Goblin deck can throw.

What is the wizard lockdown. I see the cards that help with this, but how does that deck run. It seems too slow.

There is a ton of wizard lockdowns. Of course one already mentioned the ertai-arcane lab combo. There is always limited resources-temporal adept is nice. If you want to just straight wipe creatures you can pack a ton of tims and what not. I believe blue has 3 alone. Actually I play a wizard deck its not even fine tuned either and does fairly well. Patron wizard and voidmage prodigy do fairly good jobs and securing disruption at an early point in the game and cards like Azami and Supreme inquisitor basically win you the game.

Soldier tricks are pretty much combat tricks. Things like not tapping, removing things from the game and what not are only there to help you secure the quick beats. They work like goblins but more tricks the trade off is maybe a turn or half a turn in agressiveness.

Slivers are weird thing for me. I love em. but I dont play them efficiently. I work with a 166 card sliver deck. Kinda silly, but you really get to see the different viable strategies. Some games I get red/green heavy draw and You drop heart and muscle slivers for the quick win. some times ill draw blue white and have evasion and protection allowing me to kill my opponent at my liesure. Once in a while Ill get to drop a queen on the 3rd turn. Then again I get those draws with pure oink. I get nothing...

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

I've done some of my own looking into things, looking at the cards, building apprentice decks and stuff, and listening to what the rest of you have to say. Here's what I have so far:

Goblins-really really fast. The Goblin deck I built went first and killed on turn 3.

Elves-not as fast as goblins, but faster than most anything else, with some interesting tricks. Wellwisher can stall the game if left alive. Green not the greatest support color. both Elf decks I built ended up G/U/B

Soldiers-Kind of clunky. If you want an agressive attack deck, you're better off with a non-tribe White Weenie. Can get nasty later on, but too easy to disrupt.

Rebels-Have a long history dating back to the days of Mercadian Masques. I'm not the best person to tell that story.

Merfolk-Old school nastiness. Merfolk still have the best lineup of 1cc and 2cc Blue creatures, and while they suck compared to other colors, they have the evil of blue to back them up. I've been contemplating building the traditional Merfolk/curiousity/Opposition deck, with green spliced in for Saproling Symbiosis and Gaea's Skyfolk. Only problem is the deck almost would require Tropical Islands.

Zombies-I tried but looking at all the Zombie type cards, I just didn't see a deck in them. There are many I imagine, but I haven't seen them. Zombies have a strong reputation though

Rats=Rats build a really strong discard themed deck. Nezumi Shortfang and Marrow Gnawer are bombs.

Samurai-I've been trying, and I believe I've come up with a W/R Samurai deck that at least would work. I don't expect it to be a great deck though. Main theme so far I've seen is Samurai win head to head in 1 creature vs. 1 creature, Samurai boost each other in packs, and the deck packs 14 legendary creatures with spells to take advantage of that.

Wizards-Control. A little clunky though, I've built the wizard deck, and there just doesn't seem to be enough space in a 60 card deck to make it airtight. Maybe if you lowered the creature count to 14-15 or so maybe. If you let it alone, it can gain control of the board by turn 4 or so. Its not a fast deck by any means though, and if you blow stuff up early, the deck just dies.

Snakes-Look to the future. I've seen a card from the next Kamigawa set: 2G-Sorcery-Put two 1/1 Snake tokens into play-If you play a nontoken snake, put this card back in your hand. If they give us a couple more good snakes, these guys could get nasty with a snake breeding deck.

Clerics-Built two cleric decks, and neither seems half bad. Both pack Doubtless one, which rocks, as well as Edgewalker. One is a W/b deck with mostly the best white clerics, Vindicate and Death Grasp, and Rotlung Reanimator + Wrath of God. Its pretty solid and aggressive, and not dependant on any card in the deck. I also built a B/w version, with the better black ones, 4 Hymn to Tourach and 4 Gerrard's Verdict, and Daunting Defender making Pestilence never deal any damage to my clerics.

Slivers-Two sliver decks, the 3 color Aggro-Control Sliver deck, and the five color big and bad Sliver deck. Not familiar with the first, the second I've played against, and if you let it alone for too long, you lose.

Beasts-Haven't even bothered. I just don't have it in me to build a slow deck. Beasts completely lack a decent 1 or 2 drop.

Spirits- Still wondering if the next Kamigawa expansion is going to add enough spirits and Arcane spells to make Long Forgotten Gohei good.

 

[Crackdown]

For casual play, Pirates with Wave are fun.

 

[mythosx]

as far as clerics go you can play them nice or you can play them mean. I play Vintage so that one deck posted on ealier in the casual decks was spot on for the mean deck. Sorry I can't remember who posted it and is credited to but I think it was rooser or oversoul. But basically its colored clerics and edge walkers while packing skull clamps and the free eqiup cost guy, which incidently is a cleric i believe. The kill condidition is a properly set up tendrels of agony. Very very mean and tribal.

Here are two analysis I want some one to look at besides me. How do you get kobolds and Chimera to work? I really want the Chimera to work cuz its got a voltron like theme going.

 

[jorael]

Hmm Chimera's... I'd start with using Cloudposts or the Urzatron (Urza's mine et al) and skeleton shard for some recurring.

 

[Oversoul]

Originally posted by Crackdown
For casual play, Pirates with Wave are fun.

Lots of fun!

Mythosx: kobolds and chimera in the same deck?