Prophecy - OH MY GOD!!!!

[igfett]

dune, you complain that free counters will HELP combo???? counterspell decks are always the nemesis of combo decks, and these free counters will just keep them in check. combo decks ussually don't have room to hold an extensive counter base, if any at all. in extended formats, force of will was already enough, and none of these new counters will work in it. they are very well designed to be usefull only in a deck that is mono-blue or close to it, unlike the original, which could be splashed into anything with a few blue search cards. i see these as a great step towards bringing one of my favorite archetypes back to type2; draw-go. we finally have enough good counters to make it feasible. sligh may also make a comeback, in a more burn-centered form, if red gets a few good weenies and burn spells over the next few sets (flame rift is amazing, and tangle-wire would fit right in). anyway, i see the new counters as a very positive thing, and an environment in which draw-go is good is about as slow as you could ask.\
just my two cents

 

[linsivvi]

Tag Guard

Linsivvi decides to instead of summoning a creature to do hid dirty work, attacks and kills igfett.

 

[Captain Caveman]

I probably should have posted this in the Rules section but
it sort of fits the topic.

I've been wondering about one of the Prophecy cards on
Istanbul's list.

Dual Nature 4GG
Enchantment
If a creature comes into play, its controller puts a creature token into play, treat this token as a duplicate of the creature.
If a creature leaves play, destroy all tokens with the same name as that creature.
If Dual Nature is removed from play, remove all token creatures created by Dual Nature from the game.
Rare

Ok, what happens if I play a Deranged Hermit? Will I get
8 3/3 tokens or four 2/2 tokens and two 1/1 Hermits?

Next question. What would happen if I Replentish this card?
(1st;Opalesence, 2nd;Dual Nature, 3rd;Parallax Tide or Wave
and so on.) Will I get the counters on the token creature/
enchantment?

Just wondering.

Caveman

 

[Y The Alien]

Tag Guard

Dual Nature is TERRIBLY worded. That's gonna require the biggest book of errata you've ever seen. And Green's Avatar rules. Heck, I'll just drop him 2nd turn with a Natural Order, or 5th or 4th turn with Priests and Cradles. 8/8 tramplers rule . Black's Avatar is sick. A built in fear, royal assasin that doesn't care about tapped or not, and he's a 6/5? Recursion....

Oh, and I'm sooooo buying Belbe's Portal for this set. "I drop Avatar of Might for 3."
Opponent- cries.

 

[Lythand]

I dont really know. I am strongly anticipating Prophecy. I think some major things will turn up. Not only will a few current deck types get major boost. But I seriously see new deck types to surface. And once type 2 rotates in the fall. Then the whole type two scene will just be plain fun again. Dont get me wrong, I like type 2 now, but with the departure of Masticor, Bargain, and Replenish..I think Type 2 will be a whole new experience. I cant wait.

 

[Lythand]

I wanted to respond to Caveman. I think what happens in the situation of Replenishing Dual Nature, is that no matter how it comes into play before or after the opalesance, the enchantments come into play as enchantments. Then they are already in play and turn into creatures. So I dont think it will have any effect. Of course I could be wrong. Can anyone answer this, because I like to know.

 

[Gumby Khan]

Actually, in the example, replenish with these four enchantments in the graveyard; opal, dual, tide, and wave. Active player stacks the order; opal, dual, tide, and wave. Opal makes Dual a creature and Dual activates, "put a dual token into play" goes on the stack, tide comes in, "put a tide token into play" goes on the stack, wave comes in, "put a wave token into play" goes on the stack. Now, resolve the stack, put a wave token into play (with five fade counters), put a tide token into play (+5 fade counters), put a dual token into play. Now you have one opal, two dual, two tide, two wave, and each of the last two have fade counters on them. SO, you wave out your opponents lands and creatures and attack with two 6/6 dual creatures! If you play another opal, then you would create two opal tokens (two dual in play now) and when they hit the table, the first dual becomes a creature, which triggers both duals again and creates two more opal tokens. That gives you a total of six opal, two dual, two tide, and two wave. Kinda ugly, huh? Let's make it uglier!
Now, the wording doesn't say "non-token" creatures on dual. SO, when a token creature comes into play, it may trigger again, which of course would put an infinite loop into motion and they would never let that happen, would they? Can you say, errata? This will break replenish even more and we will be thrown into the dark ages, like when Necro was broken back in '95! I'm gonna crawl into a hole with a pack of Ho-Ho's and a bottle of Crown Royal. Call me when it's all over, 'kay?

 

[Lythand]

there is one problem with the first part of your example. When the second opal is cast, the two duals activate and yes..they do make two more opals. Those opals activate the first opal, but, it is already in play, so it would no activate the duals..hence only 4 opals..but still makiing replenish very broken..and I could imagine the people who make these cards up and see this will say. "What the hell where we thinking".

Also I can guarantee that if Cavemans post of Dual Nature is exactly correct, then it will definitly get errata. Because anytime a creature is cast, then you would have infinite creatures comming into play. It will probably say something to the effect that it does not effect creature tokens.

 

[Chaos Turtle]

First, Dual Nature is almost certainly worded incorrectly in the spoilers, otherwise it's ridiculously easily broken...

Second, when you Replenish, the enchantments all come into play at the same time, not one at a time. This is different from pre-6th rules.
Assuming that Dual Nature does not trigger off of token creatures, here's an idea of what happens in your scenario:

(In the graveyard: Opalescence x2, Dual Nature, Parallax Wave, Parallax Tide.)

Play Replenish.
Replenish resolves; 2 Opals, Dual Nature, Wave and Tide come into play. Note that they are all in play by the time Replenish is done resolving, and they are all creatures thanks to the Opals.
Dual Nature triggers; "Show of hands, all creatures who just came into play!" All your little dudes raise their hands
Dual Nature puts 5 tokens into play: 2 Opal Tokens, a Dual Nature Token, A Wave Token and a Tide Token (figure out for yourself how to put counters on your tokens...).
Now, all of those tokens die. Why? Opalescence says they have P/T equal to their converted mana costs, which is zero (assuming the copy card rules are what NetRep Paul Barclay says they are).

I would definitely wait to see an actual version of this card before building any decks around it.

 

[Dune Echo]

Dude, where have you been?

I think you're right about the new free counters. I guess I'm just thinking about Force of Will and how it is so prevalent in Type 1 and was in Donate/Illusions. I see it more as a combo protector because of that than as a free counterspell for blue. But I think you are probably right, those new ones are more monoblue oriented. So, the question remains, will they stop Stompy and piss me off? That's the real problem!

 

[Captain Caveman]

There's no doubt that this text is incorrect. I'm going to
guess it will say something like:

"Whenever a "non token" creature comes into play,.........

Still, thats old formating. It might be something completely
different. I hope R&D hasn't messed up again. After all
the comes into play errata, they should have learned by now.

Caveman

 

[Istanbul]

I'm not surprised. Several of the cards that have been released are poorly formatted enough that I doubt they'll be released in that form. R&D may not be on top of the ball 100% of the time, but I seriously doubt they'd let that monstrosity get out (especially since the rules text would barely fit into the box!).

 

[igfett]

hey dune
well, counterspells, even free ones, have never been a great solution to stompy. but, i'm not worried, i think my stompy deck has just about run it's course, as i missed top eight for the first time in a month and a half of friday night magic tournies this weekend. i was pretty mad. my opponent wouldn't ID in the last round, and he was playing control black, so he won and i finished 3-2, in 11th. it sucked. oh well. stompy is begining to bore me anyway.
anyway, the wording on the dual nature is definitly wrong right now, and it would create infinite creatures whenever any creature comes into play. it says (according to newwave)

Dual Nature
4GG
Enchantment
Illus. Arnie Swekel
If a creature comes into play, its controller puts a creature token into play, treat this token as a duplicate of the creature.
If a creature leaves play, destroy all tokens with the same name as that creature.
If Dual Nature is removed from play, remove all token creatures created by Dual Nature from the game.

<if a creature comes into play, it's controller puts a creature token into play...>
if you don't see the obvious problem there, i don't know what you're smoking. the token creature would trigger the dual, which creates another token, which triggers the dual, which...... use a haste creature, or something like a ghitu fire slinger, and you win. the obvious fix is to simply make it non-token.

with replinish, this is pretty sick anyway.

 

[Y The Alien]

Tag Guard

The Prophecy spoiler and card commenting system is finally up on mtgnews.com. I immediatly plunked down 15 or 20 comments. Check it out.

 

[Lythand]

Chaos. I dont know about your ruling. As far as I was told by a judge one time, when you replenish, they come back in any order you want and not one at a time. That way you can have Death pit offering come into play first, then all other enchantments, the opalesance. The stack would resolve with opalesance first, any enchantments in between, then death pit offering. And nothing would die cause of offerings ability. Maybe the judge was wrong. But thats how he allowed me to play it.

 

[Chaos Turtle]

Actually, Death Pit Offering's ACIP (As~Comes-Into-Play) ability wil resolve before any of the enchantments are actually in play.
That's what makes it so cool in Replenish; you can't screw it up.

You got the right result from an inaccurate ruling...happens all the time.

Anyway, what you can do (not that it applies in this case) is decide the order that CIP-triggered abilities go on the stack, as when you play Living Death with a bunch of cool CIP creatures in your graveyard.
Furthermore, you choose the order in which to apply continuous abilities of permanents which enter play simultaneously, as when you Replenish, say, a Flight (gives flying) and an Earthbind (takes away flying and smacks the flier for 2) onto the same creature; you would decide which of the abilities to apply first--I suggest Earthbind first, so long as the creature does not already have flying, then Flight, giving you a flier with no damage.