Opinions on Proxies(feel free to vent)

[TheCasualOblivion]

Just throwing it out there(as I tend to do)

Feel free to add any opinions, or any personal use of them.

I'm not really sure of my overall opinion on this. I've seen cheesy little munchkins build proxy decks out of cards they don't have. I've also seen it done tastefully.

I've done it myself in a few instances actually:

1. I tend to build a large quantity of decks. These decks tend to share limited numbers of certain staples, most often City of Brass for the 3+ color decks I'm always building. I put proxies for City of Brass in all of the decks, and carry the real ones separate to display when I play the proxies. I do this with a number of other cards I share between decks, like Night's Whisper, Flametongue Kavu, other non-basic land ect...

2. I've built decks on proxies to test how they work before I fork out the cash to buy the cards for them (I almost always buy, and almost never trade). I always announce this before a game.

3. I've made proxies of cards I've ordered on Ebay but haven't arrived yet. I get impatient sometimes. I usually bring a copy of the order.

 

[Limited]

I tend to make a lot of decks as well (66 at the moment) but I don't swap around staples. First of all, I don't want the hasle of moving cards back and forth. But more importantly, when building a deck (say, another zombie deck) and all my Patriarch's Biddings are in other decks, it forces me to use other cards so the decks get less predictable. I still have rows of commons that never see the inside of a deck; wouldn't want to use an even smaller part of my collection..
But I have no problems with people using proxies.. hell, they don't even have to have the cards. If they figured out some wacky combo with Livonya Silone, I gotta see it.

 

[Spiderman]

Hmm, not sure I how really feel about proxies. I guess in theory in a casual game, they shouldn't matter, but I just like the idea of having to use the actual card since if you want to play with it, you should go to the trouble of getting it (in the whole spirit of the CCG theme ). Probably one or two are okay overall, but I guess I think you should be playing with the actual card if at all possible.

No real reason against proxies, just a gut feeling. I haven't had to face them really, so not sure.

 

[Killer Joe]

1.) I use proxy's for play testing. But only for the cards I actually have. I have two Taigas and if they're in another deck when I'm play testing then I'll make two proxy's of them (Black Sharpie Marker & 8E Forests & Plains are good to use).

2.) I won't mind playing against someone with proxy's,...once. Then I'll choose not to play them again, mostly. I won't say anything about it though.

For a while I was carrying around a copy of "The Deck" all proxied-up and would pull it out if I would play against someone who has a proxy deck. It was very annoying to those few who eventually stopped playing against me. Jerks.

I once had a student of mine say this prepared line:
"By agreeing to play against me you have accepted my use of proxy's."
He would do this when playing against unsuspecting peers with "plie" decks. He said he had gotten that line from some magic related website. He was one of the folks who didn't want to play me when I would pull out "The Deck". Also, his proxies were unmarked lands (usually of the colors he wasn't playing, <MAN> that was annoying.)

 

[Mikeymike]

Our group began going a little proxy crazy recently, and its for the better.

1 of the guys virtually owns every card in the game.
1 of the guys owns the complete P9 and sometimes competes in Vintage tourneys.
1 of the guys (me) has a pretty rounded out collection (including CE) and will spend money on the cards he wants.
And the last guy sold his cards, is trying to get back into the game, but does not want to spend money again.

We decided to make it fun for everyone, the last guy can proxy whatever he wants to, while we can proxy some more expensive cards to see if we want to bother buying them (like Diamond Valley, or Bazaar of Baghdad). He does not at all abuse this ability, just playing with some duals, and putting full 4x packs for his key cards.

Also, 90% of the proxis that get played are fully printed versions of the cards, not lands that say "Ancestral Recall" on them.

I came to the conclusion recently that I'm playing the player, not the collection. I want to see what he's capable of building with limitless resources.

 

[Mooseman]

In our group, very few people use proxies, but it would be fine among friends.
If I went to a different group or say a GASP/MML event, I would not even consider using proxies. It's all about the situation and the people.

 

[jorael]

if someone proxies very rare cards, just to kick our asses I get annoyed. If someone wants to try a certain fun deck or combo, go ahead, but don't use them after testing, buy the cards.

If some players have a too great advantage concerning collection size and that player uses all his cards and power 9, then letting everyone use proxies is probably a good idea (as is the case with Mikeymike)....

 

[Oversoul]

In my last year of high school, proxying cards became strangely popular for some reason, and I got thoroughly annoyed with playing against some guy who would start dropping proxies out of nowhere without telling me anything. I never refused to play someone who wanted to use proxies, but for some reason letting me know beforehand was unreasonable.

My solution was to build a deck out of Forests that had slips of paper with card names in the front part of the sleeve (no marking my own basic lands--I'm pretty frugal about that stuff) and use whatever I wanted. The deck's win condition was to Fork Time Walk and then Timetwister everything back into my library until it could eventually cast Kaervek's Torch for a lot. It usually never gave the opponent a second turn (even when they went first) and often took about a half hour to win.

People continued to use proxies after that, but if they played against me, they would always let me know about it beforehand.

Now, proxies for playtesting are just great. I mostly use Apprentice for testing these days, but proxies are still a pretty nice tool. I've done that a lot (and most players I know who have been playing for several years have too) whenever I wanted to experiment with a certain design or test my deck with certain cards which I didn't have...

I've also proxied cards that I have, although not very much. At one point I was using three casual decks that each used four copies of Force of Will, while I only have eight copies. So one of the decks would always have Burnouts in place of them. I was pretty unlikely to require all three decks at once, so I could just swap the cards. However, while playing against friends, I just told them that what the Burnouts wereand saved some time. I've seen most of them do the same at some point (usually with cards they didn't even have, but were planning on getting or whatever).

I think that proxies are fine in casual play and can make things more interesting. Although it amazes me that some players can forget to inform their opponents about their proxies SO MANY TIMES!

 

[Crackdown]

I always use orange sleeves for all my decks. I tote in a nice deck box and if I change decks and need some cards, I just shoot them in from another deck. This works well for things like City of Brass, Force of Will, Tundra, Underground Sea, Birds . . .

I also keep a written decklist in the case because I have a Memory Lapse from time to time. It really doesn't take much time to complete the deck that's missing the rotated cards.

 

[Nightstalkers]

Proxies are okay in casual play...


Proxy decks are a sin unless you are playtesting.


That's my two cents.

 

[Oversoul]

Proxy decks are a sin unless you are playtesting.

Well, I don't actually play with proxy decks, but I will play random things on Apprentice, which is basically the same. I don't consider it a "sin" at all...

 

[Nightstalkers]

Well, I don't actually play with proxy decks, but I will play random things on Apprentice, which is basically the same. I don't consider it a "sin" at all...

I consider Apprentice differently.


If you wanna apply the idea that the cards used online are proxies, then I guess MTGO is in trouble.

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

You must know people on apprentice you can play like that with. Most people i've met who play apprentice or things like it online take full advantage of having every card available and play full powered tournament decks.

 

[Oversoul]

I consider Apprentice differently.


If you wanna apply the idea that the cards used online are proxies, then I guess MTGO is in trouble.

Ah, but in MTGO you have to pay for the cards. You don't start with any cards you want. If they were proxies, you could just use whatever, but they're not...

TCO: I see no reason not to take full advantage of it...

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

I see no reason not to take advantage of it either. Its just that I've found it really hard to play off-beat decks with weird cards on Apprentice. MUCH harder than in real life.

 

[mythosx]

I have not read some of the other posts previous to this one. But I do feel strongly about this subject. So strongly that I am very close to writing a manifesto on this subject, unibomber style. NO PROXIES!!!!!!! The reason is simple. This game is already a proxy. We are already imagining we have the ability to cast spells and do cool things and there is such a thing as mana. Then you want to take it a step further and pretend you have the cards that let you pretend? It's kind of sad when you look at it from that point of view. "I'm pretending that I'm pretending" is one step away from saying "My mommy says I'm cool."

 

[Oversoul]

We are already imagining we have the ability to cast spells and do cool things and there is such a thing as mana. Then you want to take it a step further and pretend you have the cards that let you pretend? It's kind of sad when you look at it from that point of view.

I guess you COULD look at it that way. That doesn't mean it is a particularly great idea. Firstly, the imagination that goes along with a game is not the same type of pretending as using proxies. They are only related in that they are both "pretending" which is not much of a connection.

And playing the game does not necessarily mean that you are pretending you have mana or creatures. Magic can be looked at from a purely mathematical aspect. The cards each have a small picture and some of them have flavor texts that are related. The draw of the game for me has always been the various synergies and interactions and deckbuilding possibilities.

Also, you seem to find some fault in "pretending." Taking our pretending "a step further" is only a problem if pretending itself is somehow bad.

So I would say that the point of view you present is "sad" (in the sense of being pathetic, not in the emotional sense--at least not for me).

 

[Nightstalkers]

Basically any kid who gets into it will probably take that leap of imagination, Oversoul.

It's like the whole Yu-gi-oh! or Poke'mon thing, the kids like to play they're favorite heros/villains. So what if some kid gets the idea to build a deck around artifacts and call himself Urza? I think it's cute and deserves a shrug and a chuckle. But when it stars to get really deep, then I guess it gets into that wierd area where kids think they're duke nukem and blow away teachers at school and stuff...

Although, having a kid pop up in his elementary school class and try to "cast" a Trained Armodon to attack the substitute would be kinda hillarious... I wouldn't wanna be that kid's therapist.

 

[Oversoul]

Although, having a kid pop up in his elementary school class and try to "cast" a Trained Armodon to attack the substitute would be kinda hillarious... I wouldn't wanna be that kid's therapist.

Well, I wouldn't want to either. But that's a different issue than just playing a game is. And it's a different issue than proxying...

 

[Nightstalkers]

I haven't seen many people who has been uncomfortable with a little proxying.

As long as someone doesn't have a big proxy deck or starts building decks with moxes in it.