No Counterspell in 8th...

Discussion in 'CPA/WOTC Magic Issues' started by Killer Joe, Jun 17, 2003.

  1. Killer Joe Active Member

    I am waaaaay Ticked-Off about Counterspell not comming back in 8th Ed. (I'm sure there's a thread on this subject somewhere around here for me to really VENT!). But, I still think Control will continue to be a part of any current type 2 environment.

    If you squint your eyes, turn the light down low and quickly glance at this list, it may seem vaguely familiar. And if you guessed it was trying to be a 'Tog deck, then your're right.

    Okay, not really, because it only has two cards that was in 'Tog: Concentrate and Smother. Not EVEN the key cards to the deck but just some good supportive cards.

    I know there'll be a two month window (Sept. & Oct.) of Odessey/Torment/Judgement still in before type 2 changes for Mirrodin in November but I don't want to think about that because I'll most likely not be playing in tourneys those months due to marching band season.

    Of course, not you or I have any idea what the environment will be six months from now but I assure you it'll be filled with big fatties and insanely huge cc spells.

    So I was trying to be parpared for anything.

    Magpies-A Creature w/evasion that allows you draw cards if you deal damage. A reasonable selection.

    Boomerang- howinthehell am I supposed to take care of obnoxious enchantments and artifacts if they hit early? Also, it's a good creature spot removal card (sorta).

    Concentrate/Inspiration/Treasure Trove- I need help in this card drawing department. LMK a.s.a.p.!

    Dark Banishing/Smother/Decree of Pain-Losing Chainer's Edict is huge. Dark Banishing is a weak replacement. Smother is good although there'll not be any Mongrels around in the T2 future. The verdict is still out for Decree of Pain. I like it's cycle ability (All creatures get -2/-2 until EoT).

    Counter Magic: Rewind is good if you really bend your mind into thinking it's a FREE counterspell. Discombobulate is sorta good, I'd rather'd have Dismiss than 'D-combobul8'. Hey, Mana Leak is back.............HEEEEEEY, Mana Leak is back..........................I FREAKIN' said, "M-A-N-A L-E-A-K is BAA.....".........yeah, whatever..............I loved it back in the day until someone showed me that Memory Lapse was better (I think I actually started a post about whether or not M-Lapse was a good card).

    Do you think that Mirrodin will have a reincarnated counterspell for 1UU? They can call it "Inflated Counterspell" with rhetoric text that says "Hey, gas went up too, didn't it?" .

    How about those pesky pain lands going bye-bye's! I just unloaded several of 'em for good stuff! Whahoooey! I loved the tap lands, they're a-okay for me. And now that I actually own four Polluted Delta's, well, they just went right in. If you think about it having the Delta's and the Rivers together was just way too much agony and pain.
  2. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Actually, there isn't. Most people here seem to be very happy that it's gone (with train leading the way :) )
  3. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Inflated Counterspell maybe...

    Either way the UU counterspell version is no longer available in the base set...

    "Neither is invisiblility... dang Invisible Juggernauts!...":eek: :rolleyes:
  4. Killer Joe Active Member

    Maybe I'm looking at the wrong list. I thought Invisibility WAS in the core set.

    Did I miss something?
    :confused:

    So, you're glad a staple of the game is gone? Counterspell is not even close to being the best or one of the best cards in any set. In fact, I don't think counterspell has made it into a Teir 1 type II deck other than Psychatog this past season.

    Now, counter magic has reared it's head many times in the form of Circular Logic and Memory Lapse. The game shouldn't get rid of counter magic overall though.

    I do, however, can see how non-blue mages would get mad about their spells getting countered, nothing is worse than playing your game winning card, with your opponent only having two blue left open, and to have it told, "NO!". Jeezsh, I guess I would be elated to see a nemesis like Counterspell go.

    se la vie, but control decks w/counter magic will never go away and as long as there are $15 rare cards out there, I'll be sittin' right here waitin' to counter it with whatever Wiz Co. lets me have! ;)

    ~Mark
  5. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Rewind is the only card on the list so far that is actually a counterspell...

    If that's the case, I don't mind Blue having a 4cc counter... even if it untaps the lands...

    Either way the ability to stop someone from placing a card on the table in the first few turns seems to be going away, and that's only healthy for the game...

    Many a time a player has been turned one or two ways - either away from Magic, because they don't like Blue, and don't want to play against it, because they simply can't play against it...

    or

    turned to playing Blue, because they want to win at all costs... Which in turn only turns more people away, as there are now more Blue players...

    I can honestly say that there were only 2 decks out of 16 played in a tourney last night that ran Blue and ran counterspells, neither won...

    It is such a nice thing to watch Magic's creativity at full fruition... unhindered by Blue...

    Why bound something that can be boundless?... Play the fun parts of Blue, and not the counter parts, and everyone won't mind seeing 2 islands on the table... Believe it or not - Blue can WIN without counters...

    and that's about it...
  6. Killer Joe Active Member

    Mana Leak early game can be awfully annoying. A turn 2 Wild Mongrel that would lead to a turn 3 Arrogant Wurm could equate a game loss in a hurry. So now I am wondering why they included Mana Leak if they're trying to put creativity back into the game.

    As for as people who quit, between atcion and reaction* there is a tiny space in which we can decide how to react to any givin stimuli. So Blue doesn't make people quit, PEOPLE make themselves quit. Of course, not everyone is powerful enough to bend their paradigm to accept this kind of thinking :p

    *7 Habits stuff from Stephen Covey

    ~Mark
  7. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Okay...

    I'm going to correct myself here...

    I had only been looking at the Core set cards released by expansion...

    I haven't seen the full spoiler, or paid attention to it until I just found the one I'm looking at on my other Browser's display...

    Leak may be easier to splash, but it doesn't exactly tell the person they can't have what they're casting... so it's not that bad...

    Now - I'm a little disappointed they didn't place City of Solitude in the Green cards... but Defense Grid is cool enough... and Choke... and Boil... etc...

    Now that I have found the full spoile, I'll have to go through it a little more in-depthly...

    Still - counterspell is gone!...

    As for Blue making people quit - I only mentioned that they are turned away... you're right - quitting is something they do... but it's like being told no so many times in real life... after a while, it can wear you down...

    I'm honestly glad that it just isn't as prevalent here where I live...;) :cool:
  8. Killer Joe Active Member

    End of topic :)
  9. Mikeymike Captain Hiatus

    Actually, I have to admit I'm rather surprised how blatantly WotC has castrated blue in the last bunch of sets - this comes from a green mage.

    Now the added Choke and Defense Grid to Boil? Ouch. I guess they want to experiment with an environment w/o counters.
  10. train The Wildcard!!!...

    I think it all comes down to what WOTC has seen played over the last few years...

    Counters have not ruled the scene... maybe they're not needed as much as they once were...
  11. Ferret CPA Founder, Slacker

    How can anyone say that Blue is castrated just because counter-magic has become less viable? It just helps level the playing field. They still have more fliers (automatic evasion) than any other colour and they have more cards that control the board better than any other colour (counter/bounce cards). Now, they'll just have to play on the same plane as the rest of the 'mortal' colours.

    As for WotC removing a 'staple' hasn't WotC been doing that since Fifth Edition? Remember Force of Nature? Remember Scryb Sprites? I consider them to be staples of the game that haven't seen print in a looooooooong time....

    -Ferret

    "Welcome to my world"
  12. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker



    Some of us collect the stupid and obscene ones just for the card art ya know! #$$&*#$
  13. Rooser Thread Necromancer

    What I don't like about this whole counter mess is that WOTC has been simultaneously making the counter-pool less viable while AT THE SAME TIME printing cards that get around and/or severely punish counter-magic. Even if the counter-pool was more stable, blue wouldn't beas strong simply based on how the game has changed in the last three blocks.

    I think WOTC is overreacting. Before Invasion Block, Playing Morphling Draw-Go in TYPE 2 was more than viable, it was really strong. Too strong maybe. It got like this because WOTC was printing too many solid counters per block. Whether they're good or bad counters, Draw-Go is viable so long as it can fill 32 slots in its deck with counterspells.

    Counterspell itself got put on the chopping block because WOTC thought it was too strong for T2. The problem is not that it's too strong for T2, the problem is that as long as a 2cc counter can be backed up by a 3cc and 4cc counter, blue is the strongest color. The problem is just that there are too many counters to choose from.

    What I appreciate WOTC doing is printing better cards in all the colors; stuff that gets around counterspells. What this does is force blue to playa more balanced game.

    But anyway, this is what I think WOTC should do:

    1) Print Counterspell and Power Sink in every core set, and nothing elsae counter-wise.
    2) Only print 1, (Hear me? 1, One, Uno, Singular), counterspell PER BLOCK, preferably something that's strong but not broken and something that fits with the mechanics of the block. Odyssey could have just stuck with Circular Logic, and Onslaught could have just stuck with Complicate.

    This means there are never more than 4 counterspells to choose from in T2. This may sound extreme, but consider that counterseplls deal with just about everything but land. Well, on the permananet end of things, something like Vindicate deals with anything but an instant/sorcery, but we only see something like Vindicate once in a blue moon. Why do we see so many counterspells? If black and/or white had been getting truckloads of various "Destroy target permanent" spells from the beginning, they'd probably be the strongest colors, not blue. Why is blue's universal answer recreated so many times? That's what the problem is, not that somebody can counter a spell for only 2 mana. Who would care if they could only do it four times?
  14. Rooser Thread Necromancer

    Yes, which makes me mad that we get Obliterate instead of good ol' Jokulhaups, (But I can't blame WOTC because we, the players, voted it in).
  15. train The Wildcard!!!...

    With Counterspell gone... I'd like to adjust my view of "Blue stinks"...

    Blue smells bad...(in all formats not Standard - it stinks!)
  16. NorrYtt Casual Green Mage

    Here is Mystic Denial from Portal:

    Card Title: Mystic Denial
    Color: Blue
    Card Type: Sorcery
    Cost: 1UU
    Off./Def.: n/a
    Card Text: Play Mystic Denial only in response to another player playing a summon creature or a sorcery. That card has no effect, and that player puts it into his or her discard pile.
    Artist: Hannibal King

    Since Portal has only Creatures and Sorceries, this card is the 1UU Counterspell. Expect to see it in Mirrodin!
  17. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    About darned time they reprint it!
  18. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Now where's the Nightstalker?!....

    (Blue smells bad in standard...)
  19. Killer Joe Active Member

    Do you have proof they would/will reprint this? Probably the next counterspell card might read something like this:

    Weak Counterspell
    7UU - Instant
    Counter target spell only if the spell's owner allows it to be targeted.
    Discard a card.
    Lose 10 life.
    At end of game, pack up and leave gaming area in shame.

    "Blue mages are to be punished for years of enjoyment at the cost of others."

    Nah, probably too strong.


    Just as much as you're annoyed with counter magic (Counterspell specifically), I'm annoyed with those opposed to it. I know it's childish of me to be mad, but I am.:mad:
  20. train The Wildcard!!!...

    The best counterspell I've ever seen was Ertai's Meddling...

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