need some input

[chris92]

i need help with my discarder deck.
i'm polishing up my deck, it runs real well, but it depends heavily on the rack, sometimes winning or losing depends if it shows up or not.
here it is:

creatures
4 knight of stromgald
4 hypnotic specter
4 ravenous rats

other permanents
4 the rack
3 bottomless pit
2 megrim
1 nev's disk

other spells
4 hymn to tourach
4 duress
2 stupor
4 dark ritual
4 diabolic edict
2 drain life

lands
18 swamps

 

[Spiderman]

Wow, talk about old school.... Well, I'd probably suggest a Demonic and Vampiric Tutor to get the Rack or other cards you need... maybe Yawgmoth's Will to reuse some cards in the graveyard... not sure of the Pit since it affects you too... maybe Anvil of Bogardan since at least you get an extra draw out of it.

 

[Reverend Love]

Geth's Grimoire needs to be in this deck.

Mabye...

Bookworms
Cackling Fiend
Order of Yawgmoth
The Various Specters (Abyssal, Silent, Hollow)

You really need to add in Dark Rituals though.

 

[Mikeymike]

Take a look at the Type 1 restricted pool, you've got access to a lot of goodies that would fit well in here. Mind Twist, Demonic Tutor, Yawgmoth's, Sol Ring, Strip Mine, and even Necropotence (restricted?)

Do you have access to any newer cards at all? Something like 2-3 Cabal Coffers would help. Cabal Therapy is also a very good discard card.

I'd put at least 1 more Megrim in here, maybe 2. I'd probably drop the Bottomless Pits first out of everything, then Ravenous Rats or Stupor.

 

[Spiderman]

He does have Dark Rituals though...

 

[chris92]

there are actually 4 dark rituals in the deck.
the deck started out with 3 megrims but i removed one in space of the land, megrim often times become a dead card in my hand.
bottomless pit is great realy, it's what's keeping my deck original from all the discarders, once its there u won't worry about getting other discard spells.

yeah, i still have some access to newer cards.
i'll experiment with geth's grimoire. cabal therapy sounds good too. i'll change the stupors to mind twists if i find some.
i dunno about the yawgmoth's will its to costly for my 18 land deck. do u even think 18 lands could cut it?
i'll try making space for the tutors and sol ring.

what do u think abt adding pauper's cage? or some creatur removal like mutilate?

 

[Istanbul]

I see some intrinsic flaws in this deck.

#1: Bottomless Pit sucks. Always has, always will. Remove all copies immediately.
#2: The inherent flaw in discard is that it doesn't stop your opponent from topdecking something nice and bashing your face in with it.
#3: Your deck has lots of paths to victory, but doesn't do any of them well.

First of all, the obvious answer: remove all 3 Bottomless Pits. Also, remove both Knights of Stromgald - they're good, but not good enough for this deck and not in theme.
Finally, while Ravenous Rats are cute, they're the lowest class of discard.

You see, I classify all discard into three groups:

Class C - Worst discard. Your opponent chooses and discards.
Class B - Random discard. TSIA.
Class A - Best discard. You choose the card your opponent discards.

What are Ravenous Rats, but Class C discard with a 1/1 speedbump attached?

So, we're left with the guts of your deck:

4x Hypnotic Specter
4x The Rack
2x Megrim
1x Nevinyrral's Disk
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Duress
2x Stupor
4x Dark Ritual
4x Diabolic Edict
2x Drain Life

Now, I'll argue immediately that you need to categorize them like this:

4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Duress
2x Stupor
4x Hypnotic Specter
-
4x Diabolic Edict
2x Drain Life
-
4x The Rack
2x Megrim
1x Nevinyrral's Disk
4x Dark Ritual

The first group is your discarders. The second helps you control the board, and the third helps you push the kill through.

Now, let's look at them. Clearly, you don't have enough discard. But what to use?
I'm a big proponent of Addle. By the time you cast it on turn 2, you can often figure out what color your opponent is playing, which makes it a cheaper (albeit slightly more limited) Coercion. Doesn't touch artifacts, though. Let's drop 3 in.

Oh, but we forgot basic land, didn't we? You asked if 18 was enough. I'd say 'no'...it seldom is. Let's try it with 20 land.

4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Duress
2x Stupor
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Addle
-
4x Diabolic Edict
2x Drain Life
-
4x The Rack
2x Megrim
1x Nevinyrral's Disk
4x Dark Ritual
-
20x Swamp

We're left with 6 empty slots. But wait...we're not done yet.
Relying on your Rack is good, and with this much discard, is likely to be a good course to follow to victory. But what if you don't draw it? You're dead in the water. How about something that helps you draw cards?
Drop in 3 Skeletal Scrying. Yes, I know...but I swear by the card, and you should too. Turns your used discard into card-drawing.

Now for the Drain Life. Fun card? Yes. Good in a deck with very little mana? Definitely not. Out it goes, in favor of more creature control - let's drop in 4 Chainer's Edicts. You now have 12 ways to kill creatures, and one slot left.

Is Megrim good? In the early game, yes. And it'll let you get a few points in. But let's face it...once you're done demolishing your opponent's hand, he's just going to cast whatever he draws, and your Megrim becomes a dead card on the field. Let's lose them both.

Now, for the one I suspect will REALLY raise some eyebrows...lose the Nevinyrral's Disk. (ducks thrown garbage) I know, I know. But what does your kill rely on? Racks. Artifacts. You NEED them to be there, and you can't afford to pop a disk with your treasured Racks in play.

So, that leaves four slots. What do we put there? Well, what's the big problem with our deck? Consistency. We need something that does what The Rack does, so that we have a better chance of drawing into our kill. Well, there's always Demonic Tutor...and I don't see one there. BLASPHEMY! And a little-known artifact called Wheel of Torture can work as Racks #5-7, improving your odds of not even needing to Tutor.

And finally...this one will REALLY turn some heads...lose the Dark Rituals. I know, I know. They're a huge mana burst. And getting one in your opening hand might let you play an extra spell on turn 1. But look at your spells and what they cost. Your discard spells go 2-1-3-3-2. Your creaturekill spells are useless on turn 1. And your other spells can, and sometimes need to, wait. In other words, Ritualing into discard is more likely to burn you than it is to help you...and nothing else is worth the card slot. Not only that, but drawing it in the late game equals a dead card, and nobody wants those.

That leaves us with four slots. What do we put there? Well, it looks to me like you're a little short on discard. I wouldn't mind putting 4 Specter's Wails or 4 Coercions in there. But maybe your environment is more creature-based, in which case you'd want something like Mutilate. I'll leave those 4 slots open for you to metagame with.

-

-

So here's what my version of your deck looks like. What do you think?

4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Duress
2x Stupor
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Addle
-
4x Diabolic Edict
4x Chainer's Edict
-
4x The Rack
3x Wheel of Torture
1x Demonic Tutor
4x ????? (Metagame)
3x Skeletal Scrying
-
20x Swamp

 

[Rooser]

I just built a 1.5 discard for a tournament today. In case you're trying to keep things type 1.5, I'm not going to suggest stuff like Demonic Tutor and what-have-you, though clearly it would belong in the deck if this was Type 1.

What I like to do when I build A deck that plans to speed out with Dark Ritual is make sure I have enough cards at each casting cost so that I'm likely to have an optimal use of the speed.

Anyway, here's my list if you just want a slightly different take than Isty's

Land (19):
Bloodstained Mire x4
Underground Sea x2
Swamp x13

The Quickness (4):
Dark Ritual x4

The 1-Manas (10):
Duress x4
Skull Fracture x3 <------ If you prefer Cabal Therapy here, go for it.
The Rack x3

The 2-manas (10):
Hymn to Tourach x4
Wrench Mind x3
Chain of Smog x3

The 3-Manas (8):
Hypnotic Specter x4
Chimeric Idol x4

The Back-up (9):
Mutilate x2
Diabolic Edict x4 <---- Chainer's might actually be better here.
Skeletal Scrying x3

So that's the maindeck. Why the Underground Seas you ask? Check out my sideboard.

Sideboard (15):
Tormod's Crypt x3
Massacre x4
Terror x4
Chill x4 <------- MUHAHAHAHA!

Anyway, that's my take. You definitely want to follow Isty's lead with the Skeletal Scrying's. My biggest suggestion is Chimeric Idols. They're really pretty good in a deck like this.

 

[chris92]

i completely agree with istanbul's take on megrim, i dunno why i put it there in the first place.

it's the first time i heard of wheel of torture, i'll put it in instead of the megrims.

but i don't know about bottomless pit sucking. i'm almost out of cards at turn 5 and a bottomless pit the rack combo is creaming my opponent, with the help of wheel of torture i think the extra damage will help me win faster.

knight of stromgald is a good blocker, i know it ain't the best, but i don't think chimeric idol is a good substitute. i'll think abt losing this guys and go 4 more creature removal or discard spells.

next, i don't agree on removing dark rit, a dark rit hippie on turn one, attack then hymn on turn two is almost always lights out 4 the opponent.

the reason for ravenous rats is they also serve as chump blockers, real good when there's a blastoderm across the table. i'll think abt losing 'em.

i'll lose the stupor, and put in either wrench of mind of mind twist, maybe both. i'm putting in cabal therapy too.

thanks to rooser for telling me about those discard spells, they're all great. W/ the exception of cabal therapy, this is the 1st time i ever heard of the said cards. i've been in retirement for quite a while.

i've put in a demonic tutor and a mutilate already.

i won't go with the underground sea, because sadly i don't have any. though i'll stick with the 15 swamps, and put in 4 fetch lands.

i still am not abandoning the idea of the scrying and removing b. pit. i'll test play some more and play around with the ideas you said. thanks guys

 

[Rooser]

I wouldn't play the Bottomless Pits either, though I don't think they suck. I've been hosed by them many times. However, they don't fit in this kind of deck. Thing about bottomless pit is it turns the game into a matter of topdecks - and top decks are exactly what get around a discard deck. This deck does not top deck as well as most other decks do.

What this sort of deck does to win is power out a a mana-efficient threat or two and then empty it's opponent's hand before they can put down a threat or an answer. Bottomless pit does the second part but it hinders your ability to do the first.

Ironically, Bottomless Pit works best in weird combo decks that like empty hands and top decks - I'm thinking stuff like Ensnaring Bridge.

As for the Chimeric Idols, I understand your apprehension, but I think if you gave them some time you'd find them to be a pretty reliable kill condition overall.

 

[train]

You need Necropotence and Zuran Orbs... That way you can get to your control/kills...

 

[chris92]

rooser has a good point on bottomless pit, i've been in that top-decking situation hundreds of times. i'll try running the deck without the pits. but i still think they're effective.

the deck used to run a couple of orbs, but it didn't contribute much.
necropotence? next thing i know, i'll be putting in ivory towers and sinkholes

 

[Istanbul]

Necropotence does not work in this deck.
What does Necro do?

1) Necro draws you lots of cards at a time.
You don't need lots of cards at once. You need to steadily apply pressure, which you already do.

2) Necro keeps you from drawing.
...which this deck has no way of getting around at the moment.

3) Necro costs you life.
Which you don't want to be throwing away on something with only a tertiary benefit to your deck.

I say no to Necro. And you don't run enough lands to be able to Zorb for much, so I say no to it too.

 

[Spiderman]

I like Isty's analysis. The only thing I'm reluctant to differ with is the Disk, as I always like reset buttons and you never know when you might need it (like your opponent is getting rid of your creatures and damage dealing artifacts, because once he knows you're playing discard he should be casting his spells as soon as he gets them). However, I haven't played with a discard deck in a long time nor against one, so I'm not sure if the occasion to need a reset button actually arises <shrug>

 

[train]

But the disk can get you around Necro - Isty knows that... I do think there are more disks needed - or something like the stylus...

The life issue was covered by orbs... and there's no reason the new and coming artifact couldn't be used to recur the lands...

"To bring it up to speed... press the gas pedal..."

 

[chris92]

i wouldn't put necro nin here either, because this would mean changing most of the cards, and makin a new kind of deck altogether.

reset buttons are always nice, especially nowadays with a lot of artifacts, it even sweeps off artifact lands!

i dunno if i should put in 2 mutilates and a nev's disk, or 2 disks and a mutilate.

 

[Istanbul]

If you insist on the Disk, only play 1. Remember, it'll take out your Racks and Wheels.

 

[train]

Null rod would make most artifacts useless... and mutilate could control the creatures...