[multiplayer] Predation

Discussion in 'Casual Decks/Variants/Etc' started by Ephraim, May 31, 2007.

  1. Ephraim New Member

    Creatures (14)
    4 Kavu Predator
    3 Skyshroud Cutter
    4 Wall of Roots
    3 Sakura-Tribe Elder

    Spells (22)
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Reward the Faithful
    2 Turn to Dust
    4 Invigorate
    3 Harmonize
    3 Fiery Justice
    3 Collapsing Borders

    Land (24)
    3 Rith's Grove
    9 Forest
    6 Plains
    6 Mountain

    ***

    This deck plays a very straightforward game. Play Kavu Predator and then use a variety of spells that cause your opponents to gain life as a side effect. I am currently working on finding the optimal number of spells that cause opponents to gain life. Skyshroud Cutter, for example, is a great for pumping Kavu Predator, but in all other regards, it is suboptimal. I may be served better by a fourth Sakura-Tribe Elder or Harmonize, Commune with Nature, or something that I haven't even considered.

    As noted, there is not a great deal of subtlety to this deck. It is, however, very amusing to play with cards like Fiery Justice. Five damage for three mana is a bargain and Kavu Predator completely negates the drawback of the card.

    Collapsing Borders is the 'surprise' of the deck. It is completely unexpected. Practically speaking, nobody thinks about the life gain that it causes. They just look at it like a Rack for basic land types. The way that it operates, though, means that it will frequently pump up Kavu Predator even while offering no net life gain to opponents.

    The deck operates reasonably well in an ordinary duel. Some of the cards -- Reward the Faithful and Turn to Dust in particular are present to provide the best possible results in a multiplayer game.

    My biggest concern is that this deck is fragile. All sorts of black removal spells ruin my day. The deck is somewhat helpless if Kavu Predator is destroyed. Fortunately, a lot of removal options rely on damage and those I can handle. One of the other options I may consider as a replacement for Skyshroud Cutter would be Whitemane Lion. Losing all of the counters I've accumulated on a Kavu Predator may be painful, but it beats losing the Predator entirely.
  2. Limited Yes, but we won't care

    Wow. I really like the combo between Collapsing Borders and Kavu Predator; very impressive.

    But I have to agree with you that right now the deck is very dependent on the Kavu Predator. Perhaps you could turn it into a more aggressive RG deck, with a small splash of W as back-up? Have the Invigorate and Collapsing Borders be the main source of counters for the Predator, but replace cards like Reward the Faithful with more threats?

    Cool idea anyway, please post updates!
  3. Ephraim New Member

    Let's suppose that I remove the following cards:
    -3 Skyshroud Cutter
    -2 Turn to Dust
    -3 Reward the Faithful
    -2 Plains
    -1 Mountain

    I could replace them with:
    +3 Imperiosaur
    +3 Thornweald Archer
    +1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
    +2 Krosan Grip
    +2 Forest

    Kavu Predator would become "just another threat" but it would still be the best of the threats in the deck. These changes would retain the flavour of the deck while increasing its effectiveness.
  4. Limited Yes, but we won't care

    Those changes look pretty good.

    Perhaps you could try finding some more creatures with Trample, because it makes Invigorate worthwhile even if you don't have a Kavu Predator in play.
  5. Ephraim New Member

    I'm willing to slow-play with Invigorate. I want it to boost Kavu Predator as much as possible so I will infrequently play it without a Predator in play. The only situation that is likely to occur when I would like to play it without Kavu Predator in play is when I can deal lethal damage by hardcasting it. Having more creatures with trample in the deck would make that situation more likely. On the other hand, creatures with trample are seldom costed as aggressively as Imperiosaur is. Of course, this may just not be the right deck in which to play Imperiosaur because it is 3-colour. We shall see.
  6. Mooseman Isengar Tussle

    Would any of these work as decent costed Trample creatures?

    Cradle Guard Summon - Treefolk [4/4] 1GG Urza's Saga (Uncommon)
    Trample; echo (During your next upkeep after this permanent comes under your control, pay its casting cost or sacrifice it.)

    Ichiga, Who Topples Oaks Legendary Creature - Spirit [4/3] 1GG Betrayers of Kamigawa (Uncommon)
    Trample
    Remove a ki counter from Ichiga, Who Topples Oaks: Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn.

    Possessed Centaur Creature - Centaur Horror [3/3] 2GG Torment (Rare)
    Trample
    Threshold - Possessed Centaur gets +1/+1, is black, and has "2B, Tap: Destroy target green creature." (You have threshold as long as seven or more cards are in your graveyard.)

    Shah of Naar Isle Creature - Efreet [6/6] 3R Future Sight (Rare)
    Trample
    Echo 0(At the beginning of your upkeep, if this came under your control since the beginning of your last upkeep, sacrifice it unless you pay its echo cost.)
    When Shah of Naar Isle's echo cost is paid, each opponent may draw up to three cards.

    Shivan Wumpus
    Creature - Beast [6/6] 3R Planar Chaos (Rare)
    Trample
    When Shivan Wumpus comes into play, any player may sacrifice a land. If a player does, put Shivan Wumpus on top of its owner's library.
  7. Ephraim New Member

    Ichiga, Who Topples Oaks wouldn't be suitable because I have no arcane spells or spirits in the deck to accumulate ki counters. Perhaps you meant Iwamori of the Open Fist, which would actually be a really good addition to the deck.

    I am not fond of the drawbacks on Shivan Wumpuss or Shah of Naar Isle. I've previously tried to use Argothian Wurm (ancestor of Shivan Wumpus) and it's a very risky card.

    Cradle Guard would be amazing. I should own a playset of that card, in which case, I would use it here in place of Imperiosaur without hesitation. (Unfortunately, I don't.)

    Possessed Centaur is okay, but I don't think that it's what I'm looking for.
  8. Mooseman Isengar Tussle

    the Open Fist would be better, but a 4/3 trampler for 1GG is not bad and you can ignore the ability.

    but having them sac lands on turn 4 while you are getting them with the Elders is good advantage


    as an uncommon, it should fairly cheap and easy to find, I think I may have a few.... I'll PM you

    Once again, with the Elders and spells you would be getting threshold fast and a 4/4 black trampler could be very good
  9. Ephraim New Member

    Ichiga, Who Topples Oaks is the flipped half of Budoka Pupil, which requires you to accumulate ki counters in order to flip it.

    I'm still not sold on Argothian Wurm or Shivan Wumpus. The deck is mostly for fun, so it couldn't hurt to try them out. They're probably at least as good as Imperiosaur.

    You are correct that Cradle Guard is reasonably priced. They used to go for quite a bit more than they do nowadays. I haven't priced them in a while. I'll look for them at the card shop tomorrow.

    Possessed Centaur just doesn't compare favourably to the other options that we've mentioned.
  10. Mooseman Isengar Tussle

    Cool, it's your deck.
    Maybe some of the others here can chime in.
    Let us know how it turns out, sounds like a fun deck.
    Do you think it will work in multi-player.... hmmmmm :D
  11. Ephraim New Member

    Now that I think about it, the original design from which I swiped this idea was a multiplayer deck. In that case, Argothian Wurm / Shivan Wumpus is right out. They're risky in a duel but completely worthless in a multiplayer game. I'll try Cradle Guard and/or Iwamori of the Open Fist instead.
  12. Limited Yes, but we won't care

    If you can find enough creature with trample, consider player Stonebrow and/or Fireshrieker. Fireshrieker also combo's with Invigorate!
  13. Ephraim New Member

    That is a valid evolution of this deck, but I'm a stickler when it comes to thematic consistency. Stonebrow, Krosan Hero and Fireshrieker work in any generic 'creatures with trample' deck. Our discussion has suggested that this deck requires support that does not tie directly into the theme but I am going to draw the line at additions that promote a new avenue of evolution that most probably leads away from Kavu Predator.

    (Obviously, I have posted this deck for others to enjoy. Don't let my deckbuilding foibles prevent you from testing the iterations that you have proposed.)
  14. Limited Yes, but we won't care

    Loud and clear. I agree that Stonebrow + Fireshrieker changes this to an entirely different deck (in which the Kavu Predator is still great) and its a deck I've already made.

    How about some cards that would work well with the +1/+1 counters? Perhaps Plaxcaster Frogling? It would mean adding blue, but it is a 3/3 for (3) which can protect your creatures. Plaxmanta? And Trygon Predator?

    Or focus more on the lifegain.. Orzhov Guildmage?

    Its difficult to figure out how to build a deck in which the predator is important, but not vital. I still like the Collapsing Borders in an aggressive deck, so that the Collapsing Border provides you with a little lifegain, provides the Predator with a lot of tokens and can even push through that last damage to an opponent who gets his defenses up.

    Let us know how your deck is doing!
  15. Ephraim New Member

    Based on the description that you've just given, I think that the correct answer is Fungal Behemoth. I don't think that I'd like to add blue to the deck, since it is already supporting three colours. I could see myself using two or three copies of Llanowar Reborn, though.
  16. Limited Yes, but we won't care

    Well, maybe instead of adding blue, you could add mono-green graft creatures? Aquastrand Spider is a great bear and the Troll (can't think of the name.. Sporeback?) is bit overcosted but would let you regenerate your Kavu Predator for only 1G.
  17. Ephraim New Member

    I considered both options when writing up the previous post. I opted not to include Sporeback Troll because the most crucial threats to Kavu Predator don't allow me to regenerate it anyway. (Dark Banishing, Last Gasp, and Sudden Death) I opted not to include Aquastrand Spider because its utility seemed too low. It wouldn't replace Imperiosaur, so it would have to replace Thornweald Archer. While Aquastrand Spider might equip me to handle multiple flying threats at once, if I am in a position to use it (ie: I have one or more other creatures in play with +1/+1 counters on them), I will frequently be better served by racing for the victory. Thornweald Archer allows me to remove the single most threatening creature on my opponent's team, which will frequently give me an edge, if an enormous Kavu Predator was not already enough to give me one.

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