Multiplayer Dream Halls deck...

Discussion in 'Casual Decks/Variants/Etc' started by Oversoul, Mar 28, 2004.

  1. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Here's what my (primarily multiplayer) Dream Halls deck looks like right now...

    4x Dream Halls
    3x Intuition
    3x Mind Over Matter
    4x Mana Vault
    3x Time Spiral
    2x Paradigm Shift
    4x Opportunity
    4x Frantic Search
    4x Stroke of Genius
    4x Counterspell
    4x Force of Will
    4x Arcane Denial
    17x Island

    It is capable of killing an infinite number of opponents on the second turn, rather feasably too (Island and Mana Vault first turn, then Island and tap everything for Dream Halls and pitch stuff to get the combo going). It doesn't actually use Dream Halls much once the combo is set up, but that's where the speed comes from. It pitches cards drawn to untap Mana Vault via Mind Over Matter, then uses that to propel large Stroke of Genius' over and over, recycling the library with the two Paradigm Shifts and decking an opponent every once in a while with a stray Stroke.

    The countermagic could be removed for more suitable multiplayer defense, I suppose, but it's great in the faster single-play environment, where the deck is still viable...

    I built it because I hadn't seen anyone try Dream Halls in this manner, as a combo deck. Apparently the draw of Sliver Queen and other such creatures is too great a temptation.

    Anyway, I've tweaked the deck somewhat since I first built it. It was missing the mechanism to go infinite until I found Paradigm Shift. It's pretty fun now, and looks innocent enough at first, because with the exception of Mana Vault, I rarely play any cards that attract attention (unless you count Island, but that can't be helped) to begin with. Then Dream Halls hits, but by that time it's usually too late for the competition...

    Well, what are your thoughts? When I'm more conclusive about his deck, I will probably make it the subject of my next article...
  2. Tabasco DDR Fanatic

    Can you say restricted??

    Mind over Matter, Stroke, Dream Halls, Frantic Search, Time Spiral, and Mana Vault


    You might as well built a deck subbing each of these above cards with 4 of each Moxen and 4 Lotuses....heck why not the rest of the P9.....oh and then throw in the Veldalken Archmage...that way when you play a Mox or Lotus, you draw a card...and even the paradigm shift would work too!!

    Obviously decks like this are the reason the above cards mentioned are restricted in Type 1 and Banned in Types 1.5 and 1.X....but if your screwing around with your friends go ahead.....don't expect to play with anyone higher than a casual player though.
  3. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    FYI, I know exactly which cards in all of my decks are restricted, and which are not. I usually even know which ones are banned in Extended, even though I have no respect for a format in which Dark Ritual is banned.

    If you can seriously afford all those "P9" cards, then more power to you... :rolleyes:

    I've had this discussion before though, it seems. There is something new this time though. I'm curious as to what you mean by...

    "don't expect to play with anyone higher than a casual player though."

    Perhaps you have come across some information which leads you to believe that tournament players are somehow much taller than casual players, or that they tend to play standing up, or perhaps at higher altitudes or on the upper stories of buildings?
  4. train The Wildcard!!!...

    why not cunning wish - just to have access to the sideboard...;)

    That gives you more of a toolbox, or kit full of 15 answers to various problems...;)
  5. Tabasco DDR Fanatic

    What I meant was that anyone who doesn't play casual would laugh at you in a heartbeat. Players to me are like a ladder:

    Tournament Players
    Serious Players
    Halfway-Serious Players
    Elephants
    Orangutans
    Casual Players
    Small Mice
  6. NorrYtt Casual Green Mage

    You can only play this deck against casual players because only casual players might waive the DCI banned/restricted lists. I follow the lists because otherwise people can do things like play 4 Dream Halls or other foolishness. I think you can win 95% of the time turn 1 (against a 60 card opponent) with a 40 Ancestral Recall 20 Black Lotus deck.

    Dream Halls is absolutely broken in half. Mark Rosewater cites it as one of his top ten mistakes (if my memory serves me right). Dream Halls (and others to a lesser extent) shuts the door on design space. Cards like:

    Zing 10UUUU
    Sorcery
    Put your library into your hand.

    Zam 10RRRR
    Sorcery
    This spell deals 20 damage to target creature or player.

    It's Gnaw Over Yet 10GGGG
    Sorcery
    Put 400 1/1 Squirrel tokens into play.

    GG 10WUBRG
    Sorcery
    You win the game.


    Because Dream Halls exists, R&D can't explore the upper limits of some of the game's variables.

    Most Dream Halls builds I see run Deep Analysis and Mana Severance.
  7. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Well, I don't use cards from those newer sets, but I could just use Ring of Ma'Ruf (which I have one of) in the deck, if I thought there was a need for that mechanic. I guess Cunning Wish would make for some fun though...

    Mana Severance was one of the things I was toying with trying to use in this sort of deck, but I place Paradigm shift in that same category. It's just such a cool looking card with too little practical use. But it's pretty good here...

    NorrYtt: You say you follow the "lists" but as far as I know, you can't follow all of them. What do you mean by that? You seem to be blaming problems in the game on Dream Halls. That seems to me to be somewhat of a personal preference. I can absolutely see where you're coming from there. But I think that certain cards are what make the game worth playing. It's true that the presence of Dream Halls and other cards like it might detract from the production of other sorts of cards which might be cool, but there's not much to be done about it. Some people would rather have your Zing/Zam/etc. cards see print than Dream Halls. Others would prefer the game to be the way it is in that respect. But enough of that...

    I have actually played with the Ancestral Recall/Black Lotus concept with someone else who was curious about it a while ago. I don't remember what the best ratio was, but the typical method was to use massive amounts of both, just to be able to deck even ridiculously large decks...

    However, that has nothing to do with this issue, since the 4 card rule is a fundamental rule in the game and the various banned/restricted lists are only imposed on specific tournament formats. As I've stated before, I don't have a problem with people building casual decks which conform to one of these. I mean, why wouldn't you, if you're going to play in a tournament anyway, as it allows you to "hone your skills." However that's still nothing more than a choice you can make for yourself. It's not a rule to impose on other players. I've been playing casual magic against sundy opponents for some time now, and it's not as though informing me that Dream Halls is banned/restricted is going to cause me to change this deck...

    I mean, this is a fun deck. And losing Dream Halls obviously kills it. There are many other deck concepts and builds that fit into the same category and SOMEONE has to explore them, after all. Anyway, I have built decks which do fit into categories such as Type I or Type 1.5. Most of these are also casual decks anyway, and wouldn't be competitive in those fields, some of them might. But this is obviously not one of those decks. It's a multiplayer Dream Halls deck.

    And let's face it, although I haven't elaborated on the subject of my card arsenal to anyone here, we can all assume that I, at least, could not build a multiplayer Dream Halls deck without using multiple copies of Dream Halls and probably some other cards which are banned or restricted in some format...

    Now, I am willing to accept the possibility that someone here could build a multiplayer Dream Halls deck which also conforms to a specific format of some sort. But given that Dream Halls is restricted in Type I, it would be tough to build, and require more expensive cards than I have, in order to be good. But it's generally safe to assume that if the title of a thread is ANYTHING resembling "Dream Halls deck" and especially something about multiplayer a Dream Halls deck, there is a possibility, very remote, mind you. That it may use cards that are banned in some format or even, perhaps some cards that are restricted in Type I!

    I would hope that some people could take them more seriously than a deck consisting purely of Black Lotuses and Ancestral Recalls, or multiple copies of all P9 cards; and some, I think most, people here do. This is the CPA after all...

    It's comments like Train's (and without mentioning the utter blueness of this deck? I'm a little curious about that one) that I can appreciate. And even though NorrYtt's comments are mostly just more of what I've heard too much already now, his humourous ranting on Dream Halls' brokenness as well as his demonstration of knowledge on the subject of Dream Halls decks (see the bottom of NorrYtt's post) are great too.

    But...

    Tabasco: I'm hoping your hierarchy of-well whatever that is, I just hope it's actually supposed to be absurd. I'm going to assume it is, so that this thread doesn't lose focus more than it already has...
  8. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Is this deck intended to play against friends or strangers? 'Cause if it's friends, I'm not sure how "fun" a deck is if it's supposed to kill on Turn 2 (unless everyone else is playing a similiar type of deck and it's just a race who can get their combo off). With strangers, you'd need to find a bunch who think the same way you do and waive the B/R lists, but not sure if you'd get to play a second game with them.

    I guess my point or question is: yeah, this may be a fun deck or fun for you to kill on turn 2, but in a casual setting, is that really fun socially? Yeah, you win the game, but if it's on Turn 2 (or 1, or 3, or whatever), why even play (half serious question - I mean, maybe it's just a challenge to see if you can beat your group the fastest).
  9. train The Wildcard!!!...

    When you say you don't play with cards from newer sets - is it because you don't have them?...:cool:
  10. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    It is fun. Oh sure, I'd imagine that it would become uninteresting quickly, but any deck does eventually, I'd say. It's not intended to be something that I go around with and use all the time. People would either whine and refuse to play me, or (hopefully), just play decks that are better tuned to defeat it (since I'm being so predictable, hypothetically, because this is not how I really operate).

    But anyway, for this deck, turn 2 is only optimal While it's also plausible, it's not what I'd bet on. But if no one does something to cripple its strategy, it does tend to go off around turn 5 or earlier (it can usually Frantic Search or Intuition into a Halls if it doesn't draw one, then play it by on the 5th turn, or earlier with Mana Vault out). Anyway, in multiplayer, well, it is built to win, and unless someone is playing something that goes off earlier, or targets me first with a faster deck, it tends to do so...

    Single play is a different story. It can lose to other combo decks, but it still tends to hold its own. Against aggro it is indeed a race, generally, but what would you expect? Against control, well, it has a variety of good and bad matchups depending on the opposing deck composition.

    Well, I did alter the deck for multiplayer specifically for the purpose of making it more formidable, but (while it is a mean trick), that is the idea behind making a deck, isn't it?

    I don't know what you mean by waiving banned/restricted lists, Spiderman. I'm assuming you're on the same issue, in which case you seem to me to be contending that there are casual players everywhere who only build decks according to the banned/restricted lists (which ones?) and expect opponents to do the same. I won't try to argue that such players don't exist. However, I haven't run into any of them.

    In fact, the majority of players I've met and played against seem generally unaware of the contents of these lists, or the differences between them. There are many others who do know however, and adhere to them in tournaments, sometimes playing casual games with their tournament decks (these are Type II or Extended almost exclusively--sadly Type I or 1.5 players tend to be more rare in my experience).

    Okay, but to move back to addressing your question...

    Well, you should understand that this is built for fun, and not something to keep around forever. Although the single play variant might be a bit more lasting in that respect. Anyway, it would probably be a good tool in the hypothetical multiplay game of trying to outrace other combo decks. And I have been on the giving or receiving end of (in multiplayer) ProsBloom, High Tide, Academy, Jar, infinite life combos, Bargain, Mind's Desire, Squirrel Nest, Enduring Renewal combos, Winter Orb lockdowns, Sneak Attacked Serra Avatars, Reanimator, and some many other crazy decks, some of which were understandably fast. I see no reason why not to add Dream Halls to the mix (okay, so many of those I was on the giving end of at least once, but I think almost all of them I've experience the other side of as well).

    Train: Yes, I do lack cards from newer sets (well, some of them aren't considered new anymore) and don't particularly wish to obtain them either. This is not to say that I don't love toolbox deck strategies, of course. I wish I could keep a deck around that used my Ring effectively, since that's such a cool card...
  11. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Interesting perspective, because it's my experience that I haven't run into anyone who hasn't heard of the B/R lists. Of course, outside of my group, I go to pre-releases which is a semi-tournament feel so most people have heard of them, but usually (IMO) if a person hasn't heard of them, they are really playing casual (and I'm guessing the majority are not on the Net, because it's very hard to be on a Magic website and NOT have the B/R lists come up).

    Anyway, I think I said it before, but to reiterate: sure, you don't have to go by the B/R lists, but cards are on it for a reason. Don't try to kid yourself that just because you're not playing in a tourney, it doesn't apply. Magic is supposed to be interactive, as in having games go beyond X turns (probably 5 is a good number) and cards that win the game before that are closely watched. If you can build a deck without the B/R list that wins in < 5 turns, hey, that's great. I mean, winning is obviously a goal. But I guess you have to balance it with having a general good time (obviously you're having a good time by winning, but is it truly a good time by all players?) If your opponent thinks the same about building a deck and winning the fastest, there isn't a problem either. But I submit that there are cheaper ways to obtain the same goal, namely flipping a coin, to use an old example :) The B/R list provides a further level of "standardization" where you can (hopefully) reasonably build a deck and have a reasonably length game.
  12. train The Wildcard!!!...

    you could copy artifact...

    ooh!!! - animate artifact, then clone it - and copy it with dance of many, mirari, parallel evolution, mirari...

    that's 8 rings!...:D
  13. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    lol, Train. That seems a bit extreme...

    Hmm...

    We should try to make a deck that gets an infinite number of Rings (and mana too, of course, to fetch as many cards as possible). Before Ring's errata (or maybe it was after 6th ed. came out and most people in my area just ignored it because they didn't like the stack, so they ignored it, but I think it was actually before then...) I actually did once do something that animated Ring (Karn, I'm thinking, I don't think it was Animate Artifact), and (wow, I can't even remember how I did this), Obelisk of Undoing as well, under an infinite mana combo with Intruder Alarm, allowing me to bounce the Ring after using it (even though this is completely impossible now, and probably impossible then, but oh well) and get every card in my collection into my hand. Well, that's not an available method now, and probably wasn't then (someone who has a better memory of things in those days will have to tell me), but it would be interesting to try to break that barrier anyway...

    Well of course I know that cards on on banned/restricted lists for a reason. And I'd imagine that if there weren't, tournament games certainly would be dominated by decks with 20 moxes, etc. By the way, which lists? It's not as though there is only one list, or two...

    Anyway, in single-play a deck like this, while having the potential of a second turn kill, can lose heavily to another deck at a much later point in the game, like against Forbidian...

    Any significant disruption should push the game longer than two turns. Longer than five, often enough...

    Multiplayer is a different story, but that's why this is a mean trick. And that is the intent here...
  14. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    There's a list for each format, so you build according to which one you want to play in (although remembering the difference between 1 and 1.5 is negligible). It's usually pretty easy to know which format you're building for now because of the difference in card pools.
  15. Rooser Thread Necromancer

    Wow, that's twice in one month train. I have to post another LOL just for you. Seriously. You realize what you did, right? You figured out how to use Mirari to make multiple copies of Ring of Mar'uf. Man, I haven't seen anything so wacky since I made a False Cure deck that consistenly wins on turn 5.
  16. Reverend Love New Member

  17. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    That's a lot of cards though... I wonder if it's possible to seriously a make a deck trying to do that (I don't even have a Ring, so it's more a curiosity exercise to see if other people can do it :) )
  18. train The Wildcard!!!...

    It's extremely possible in a Dream Halls deck - all you need is the right way to draw tons of cards... Blue does that well - and the rest is Green... blue green is already a viable combo - more so in more powerful formats - so dream halls probably breaks it...

    And that was without Fork, then mirari-ing the fork!!!...

    "Thank you!, Thank You!, I'm here all week"

    (since removing the ring is part of the cost now, due to errata, which it isn't on the printed version - what you did is entirely possible - although all you really needed to do was have lots of mana generation, and a way to untap it... Then you would activate it for a number of times equal to the number of cards in your collection...);)
  19. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Hmm...

    I think that was what I had...

    I remember using Obelisk in one of the crazy decks that did this sort of thing, but it probably wasn't this one...

    I know it wasn't MoMa, which is what I SHOULD have used...

    I think I animated it in some way then, and it was in a deck with Sliver Queen, Intruder Alarm, and Nature's Revolt I think...

    I do know it used Sliver Queen...

    But more importantly would be making it work now...

    What about a way to possibly make Ring into a creature and use something that could create multiple copies of the creature, thereby potentially attaining a handful of ones entire collection?
  20. train The Wildcard!!!...

    I'll see what I can come up with...

    And on the drawing tons for dream halls - Recycle - and it's still within Blue green...:eek:

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