Multani's Political Corner 5: Bush's International Policy

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Multani, Apr 12, 2001.

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  1. Multani Treetrunk Guy

    Due to a dating error, the last poltical corner was actually supposed to be P.Corner 4.

    Anyway, this month's issue:
    How, in your opinion has the Bush Administration handled international issues compared to the Clinton Administration...
    Voice your ideas, then defend them (to hell with statistics!). This is an open debate. Have fun!
  2. Hawaiian mage CPA symbiod

    All I can say is Clinton didn't create national incidents with the two most hostile nations with decent fire power 3 months into office...
  3. mogg bomber Veteran CPA Lurker

    Hawaiian mage: lol, actually I think we'll be lucky to make it 4 years without him getting us involved in a war.

    Really though, it's too early for me to tell, and honestly I'm more worried about all of Bush's other policies that I don't agree with.
  4. fuzzy510 I Don't REALLY Exist

    One-Term-President. :D :D :D
  5. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Why wouldn't Bush want us in a war? That's what got his father through HIS one term...

    Bush is basically Dan Quayle's brain transplanted into a younger clone of the original George Bush.
  6. Cateran Emperor Passed On

    It is quite unfair to blame this all on G.W. Sure, he's an imbecile (I knew that and I still thought him the better candidate), but what the military did was out of his control. The President does not, apparently contrary to popular belief, control every single aspect of the government. This was not Bushs' fault, this was the military's blunder, so treat it as such.

    The way he handled diplomacy, however, is his decision and given the situation he handled it well. No other President could hope to do so well three months into his term. This was a bad misunderstanding, and the Chinese refused to acknowledge that they screwed up by underestimating the boundaries of international waters. In the end, everyone left with their arses intact, so that is sufficient.
  7. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    To answer the question: Beats me. I assume we're talking about the China spy plane incident and the Russian/FBI spy incident? I don't really know Clinton's record and from what I saw, it looks like the two "resolved" okay. They could have been worse and maybe they could have been better <shrug>

    CE: What was the "military blunder"?

    Hawaiian Mage: I'm chuckling over your "decent firepower" remark... :)
  8. Killer Joe Active Member

    There just hasn't been enough time for me to make a significant judgement on his Policies.
    As for the G. W. bashing, well, I liked Geo. Sr., but the jury is out for GW.
  9. Thallid Ice Cream Man 21sT CeNTuRy sChIZoId MaN

    Bush has an administration??????? :eek: :rolleyes:

    Well, considering that he acted 11 days too late (which is a long time in these matters), I couldn't possibly think that Dubbya did a good thing from a diplomatic standpoint (not to mention the US doing a good thing from a military standpoint).

    For one thing (but I won't dwell on this long), a good spy is supposed to commit suicide when discovered. That's why military officials are supposed to volunteer for spy missions; they can't be assigned to them without their consent. Second, they were in Chinese airspace, but of course wouldn't admit it willingly. (Of course I'm not going to believe the government telling me that they were in international waters; if they were, they would have had an excuse for being there.)

    The more important blunder was Dubbya's refusal to apologize until almost two weeks after the incident; Clinton would have done it immediately. The reason that this was bad is that the Chinese (no offense meant to Multani) have had time to look at all the technology on the plane for anything unavailable to them; in a few years or months this technology will be available to them.

    GO USA!
  10. Thallid Ice Cream Man 21sT CeNTuRy sChIZoId MaN

    Maybe, but China left with pictures of our arse. :D (Again, no offense Multani)
  11. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Is there anybody he hasn`t pissed off yet? Apart from Right-wing fundamentalist Christians?

    Will somebody hurry up and assasinate this guy? I mean the US already has 3 assasinated Presidents, surely one more won`t make any difference? Go on you can do it, go on - you know it makes sense...
  12. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Spidey - as well as the China spy plane thing. (handled pretty well, but he had a strong starting position and used it to play hardball).
    There is the FBI/Russia thing (cocked up).
    The f*ck-the-world-up thing (Kyoto).
    The tell-Europe-it-can-go-to-hell thing (thanks, nice). The SDI thing (which is both nonsense, opposed by EVERY other country, and supremely inflammatory).
    The kill-wildlife-to-drill-for-oil thing (surprise).
    The bomb-Iraq thing (obviously ran out of ideas).
    And that`s all just off the top of my head.

    The only country doing worse is Israel, who I swear are deliberately trying to spark a war off.

    TICM - they were in international airspace, I don`t think China has tried to suggest otherwise. Basically the issue was China`s fault because it makes its planes intimidate US spyplanes by flying so close - the accident was likely to happen at some point. It was seized on by Beijing as an opportunity to make some diplomatic moves on the US and flex it`s foreign policy muscles. Unfortunately it picked the wrong President to do it with because Bush only knows how to play hardball so they just ran into a brick wall and had nowhere to go because the US was pretty much in the right for the whole affair.
    The problem is that Bush would have acted the same way in any other situation, and he won`t always hold all the cards. I think if Bush had been in power during Cuba we wouldn`t be here now.
  13. MrXarvox The Prettiest Man Alive

    Bush is a moron. Sure, nobody's gotten nuked yet, but he's done all this international BS in such a short period of time...

    I'm going to Canada.
  14. Thallid Ice Cream Man 21sT CeNTuRy sChIZoId MaN

    I know that this isn't dealing with Bush directly, but I would like to point out that this issue only occurred because of (some) military incompetence. It was certainly Bush's fault that it was an incident.

    Spies who are captured are supposed to commit suicide. That has long been a rule in the spy business, because otherwise their secrets are exposed. That's why James Bond-type spies have the little suicide pill - to use it. If they were good spies, after crashing into the Chinese plane, they would have killed themselves. That would have made them heroes. That would have made them patriotic. Instead, they gave themselves in to the people on whom they were spying. That was stupid. A distinction must be drawn.

    It would not do to pity spies who gave their lives for their country willingly; if they wished it, we could not argue, though some may find it stupid (including me). No one can be forced to fly spy planes. However, the men and/or women who did this were cowards. If you're going to do something like this, however futile this may be in the first place, do it well.

    Of course, I don't know whether I would have done what they did or what was the better option, but that's why I'm not and I never will be a spy.

    This turn of events shows the stupid gall with which this "administration" (which doesn't administer much) will "resolve" issues of pressing concern in the future. Someone such as Clinton would have apologized immediately, regardless of whether or not it was our fault (which is debatable now). That is because that is the best solution for all concerned - an attitude of "We don't fight over the little things; the big things are much more important" (being big). If that had happened, the Chinese would have given back the plane and people immediately, sans mess, or risk looking stupid and stubborn.

    Guess what?

    Now, we look stupid and stubborn instead to the rest of the world. (Gizmo would know this better than most of us.) Of course, it is not the first time in this term, much less ever, that that has happened, but so be it.
  15. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Of course not. We only assassinate GOOD presidents.
  16. Thallid Ice Cream Man 21sT CeNTuRy sChIZoId MaN

    Well, I don't know about McKinley...
  17. Multani Treetrunk Guy

    I'll be as methodical as possible in my responses....
    ...Okay..maybe not..

    Anyway, Giz: I don't think that we should be saying which side is right or wrong. In International issues, there is no absolute 'right' or 'wrong'. Thus is why I really hate listening to all the BS on TV and Radio (Even though it is quite amusing to listen to their misperceptions and propaganda.) Anyway, when a spy plane does fly close to your border, it's common procedure for inteceptors to harass the spy plane until it leaves.

    Now, here's the good part.
    It took the EP-3 a full 20 min to fly to Hainan Island. In that time, they could've probably reached the Phillipines, instead of China. Hmm...I wonder why they choose to fly to China. Second, they did not issue a mayday call. They just charged into Hainan airport. They did not get Chinese approval to enter Chinese airspace.
    THAT is where I think the U.S. breaks international law.

    The U.S. should've at least apologized for that....

    Again, I will stress that there is no 'right' or 'wrong'. I find it funny how the west always likes to put itself in the "good" guys position against the "evil" east. Overall, the situation was an accident.

    However, it was the U.S. that was spying on China. That by itself is not considered "moral". It's like a thief trying to steal from a house. In the process, the thief gets hurt. The U.S. asking for China to apologize or demanding the plane back, is akin to the thief asking the owner to apologize and let him/her go.

    Even more appalling however, is that the U.S. on the media constantly tries to justify everything it did. In recent times, this has happened quite often. It seems that the U.S. is never wrong, no matter what it does. Indeed, I believe the media would even try to justify things if, hypothetically, the U.S. charged into a peaceful country and killed all the innocent civillians. In the minds of the American people, the U.S. is always right.

    Anyway, Bush also had that little fiasco, in which he denied a treaty signed by Clinton with Canada about reducing Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere. That is a perfect example of the U.S. breaking a promise, and a treaty, and shows the U.S. can't be trusted. Of course, CNN would never cover that story in that aspect. God forbid the United States would break a treaty. God forbid the U.S. might be the "bad" guy in a situation... :rolleyes:
  18. Multani Treetrunk Guy

    Also, you guys probably should watch out about killing Bush in this country...
    The Big Brother is watching...
  19. Ura Feline Lord of the Pit

    ...oh yeah, its a big "f**k you" to the rest of the human race.

    So far from everything I've seen and read Bush is a dishonorable, irresponsible, and generally pig headed moron.
    Ever wondered why so many people in the world dislike or laugh at americans and generalize them so badly at times? Bush is a prime representative to their steriotype.

    Lets see here:

    China spy plane incident - Military screwed up and was forced to make an emergency landing after the collision with a Chinese fighter jet.
    Of course the American pilots didn't want to die so they took the only option open to them by landing in China.
    They should be happy that China didn't have them executed for espionage against the state as they have done years ago. But instead China plays its cards right, treats the navy pilots well but keeps them in holding and then even returns them home afterwards.
    Look at the losses.
    USA - damaged spy plane not yet returned and a bruised ego.
    China - One destroyed fighter plane and one Chinese pilot dead.
    I don't know about the rest of you, but I think human life is worth alot more then an airplane, which is why I was so disapointed in Washington issuing an appology to Beijing after almost 2 weeks.
    Simple rule, if your gonna spy and you get captured or go where you shouldn't be, don't cry about it.

    The Kyoto agreement - Lets get more money stuffed into our pockets as the world burns to a crisp from global warming. Gee, nice to see he has his priorities straight. You can't spend money when your barbecued George!
    Its not a difficult thing to actively work to reduce CO2 emissions, several other industrial countries in the world are working at it including Canada, Australia, and Great Britan. The simple fact that he's turning his back on a fairly large international agreement that the US did sign in good faith just makes him a two faced liar to me.
    Would the US economy suffer as much as he says if they went with the agreement? No, not even close. He's just being pig-headed about it.

    Canadian and Mexican relations - Everyone familiar with NAFTA? Its the North American Free Trade Agreement. You know free trade, it means we can export things to each other without having to pay mountains of duties and taxes on it. Well kiss that agreement goodbye. Good ol' Bushy has turned his back on it too with Canadian lumber companies because some guys in Georgia or where-ever it is in the southern US are crying cause they can't compete with Canadian production rates and quality and then making up stories about it saying that the Canadian government is shadow funding the lumber companies to crush the US ones. What a crock-o-crap. Now he's wanting to put duties of up to 60% on Canadian lumber inports. But he still wants us to sell them fresh water and electricity so California doesn't go dark and dry.
    I'd agree with Gizmo on getting him assassinated, but it would be a waste of a bullet. Just drop him out of a plane or something, its easier and you can still re-use the plane.

    Overall so far Bush's term has been a big washout of bad politics and lousy relations with his neighbors and the rest of the world.
    Is there any country that isn't pissed at the US because of Bush yet?
  20. Hawaiian mage CPA symbiod

    I still don't know how he got elected in the first place... Almost every highly renowned educated official stated plain and simply that by voteing for Bush they would be ruining everything we've worked for for the past 8 years...

    It was either rigged (the entire Bush family is a govener for one state or another, not hard to accomplish) or half the US has a grudge against Clinton for the Monica Lueinski affair(if the president of the most powerfull nation in the world can't even get a blowjob in his own office, who the hell can?)

    Oh well, in another 3 years I'll get to have a good "I told you so" staring at the post-holocastic nuclear war grounds that once were stable matter...
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