Multani's Political Corner: 2

[Spiderman]

Beggin' yer pardon, but do you know how one-sided/biased that last post sounded?

You look to the Chinese side for counterpoints? Again, I ask, what makes that more reliable than the US news? Is this Chinese news put out by the gov't or dissidents? I mean, I could say I look at the Chinese side and then look at the American side for counterpoints?!?! It's a roundabout argument; basically it comes down to your pre-set biases that are already in place.

Most Americans get their news from one source? What source is that? I know of Reuters, Associated Press, CNN (which I HOPE you don't believe most Americans get their news from), different papers which have their own biases on news selections (the coverage of the Washington Post is VASTLY different than the Baltimore Sun)... the list goes on.

The news can make an innocent person seem guilty? What about a guilty person seem innocent?

You still haven't answered my questions. How do you feel about "cop-killers"? How do you feel about criminals running around with automatic weapons when the police have "six-shooters"? How do you feel about criminals having access to body armor? How do you feel about criminals having cable TV and state-of-the-art gyms and weight rooms paid for with TAXPAYER money in jails?

And where was is "proven" that the CIA was partly behind T. Square?

I'm guessing you're also of the mind that it was a deliberate conspiracy that the US bombed the Chinese embassy during the Serb bombings last year too...

 

[Multani]

Yes, when it comes to some domestic issues, there are different sources. However, when there are international and serious domestic issues that can downgrade the position of the U.S., then the opinions of the afforementioned "sources" all give the reader the same conclusion.
As far as the media making innocent people guilty and vice-versa, both are wrong.
Also, I did not say Chinese newsgroups are anymore reliable than the American Media. I simply said I was looking for counterpoints. That means I want to know BOTH sides of an issue and draw my own logical conclusions.
As for what you say about cop-killers, granted I don't like the idea, but these days, cops are also armed with impressive weaponry, such as automatic weapons. And very few criminals have access to body armor. Think about it. The excuse that criminals are heavily armed these days is a perfect excuse for a cop who has killed an innocent. The cop could say he did it in self-defense. What are you gonna do? Do you have evidence to contradict that? No. That is why cops should receieve much more restraint when using their firearms.
As for the fact about prisons having cable and gym equipment:
a.) Very few prisons that know of have that.
b.) It's for the rehabilitation of the criminal.
My solutions.
If a cop has a weapon, he should show more restraint when using the weapon. There will be acceptions.
or.
A cop is not allowed to carry a gun. For this to work though, guns would have to be outlawed in the U.S.

 

[Ura]

Well, for one of the things for the police to have restraint in using their firearms, in Canada, an RCMP officer isn't even allowed to draw his/her weapon or remove it from the holster while on duty unless already having a gun pointed at him/her first. To do so will get them in no end of **** that usually ends in severe reprimands to the officer being discharged from duty permenantly.

[Edited by TomB on September 6th, 2000 at 11:46 PM]

 

[Thrash Golem]

Whre I live, police ride ponies and have funny hats. They don't carry guns either. They carry like ticket book, and a bottle of milk or something.

Guess where I live? and the answer is Canada.. first person to guess that the answer's Canada wins a free prize to be given to yu by.. none other then umm the guy who makes ice cream with thallids.

 

[Spiderman]

This thread is going to get too long so I can't scroll down and see what you said! I'm gonna have to cut and paste...

Yes, when it comes to some domestic issues, there are different sources. However, when there are international and serious domestic issues that can downgrade the position of the U.S., then the opinions of the afforementioned "sources" all give the reader the same conclusion.

I guess we're going to have to have our differences on this one because I DEFINITELY disagree with this one. There's ALWAYS differing viewpoints concerning international and domestic affairs, either between liberal and conservative views, or those that advocate getting involved in other countries' business and those that don't. Plus Reuters and Associated Press (I believe) are international news organizations; why should they care if what they print makes the US look bad?

Also, I did not say Chinese newsgroups are anymore reliable than the American Media. I simply said I was looking for counterpoints. That means I want to know BOTH sides of an issue and draw my own logical conclusions.

Looking for counterpoints from the Chinese media on an American domestic issue (which is what this thread was about originally and so I assume you're doing it here) is not very reliable. I mean, the Chinese aren't HERE! How are they going to present a "counterpoint" view? That's like saying trusting an American article about a Chinese domestic or Iraqian domestic situation... unless they're getting it firsthand.

As for what you say about cop-killers, granted I don't like the idea, but these days, cops are also armed with impressive weaponry, such as automatic weapons.

Really? That's interesting news... I am under the impression that most police departments are armed with a Berreta or 9 mm something, which I thought was semi-automatic...

And very few criminals have access to body armor.

Heh, that's just flat out wrong. You do realize there's a black market where anything can be gotten? You can even get it on the web, though most but not ALL merchants check to see if the buyer is a law-enforcement.

Think about it. The excuse that criminals are heavily armed these days is a perfect excuse for a cop who has killed an innocent. The cop could say he did it in self-defense. What are you gonna do? Do you have evidence to contradict that? No. That is why cops should receieve much more restraint when using their firearms.

Do you have evidence NOT to contrdict it? Tell you what, you tell me how many instances police have had confrontations with armed criminals/persons (ANY kind of weapon, whether it be a gun or a bat) and then tell me how many instances police got "shot" (or injured) and how many instances the criminal/person was killed. If EVER the it's a 1 to 1 ratio or even 50% then I'll grant that police MAY have too much power. Eitherwise, I'm going by that you're taking a few instances in the media and extrapolating them to the sweeping conclusion that the police have too much power.

As for the fact about prisons having cable and gym equipment:
a.) Very few prisons that know of have that.
b.) It's for the rehabilitation of the criminal.

a. Again, it's a matter of numbers and research. Until then, it's apparent we have different perspectives on it.

b. I have to laugh <chuckle> . "Rehabilitation" has got to be the lamest excuse I have ever heard for justification, not trying to single you out but in general from all the prison/criminal rights advocates. These guys committed a CRIME, for Pete's Sake! Prison isn't Club Med. If they want to use gyms, they ought to reimburse the state for "gym fees" when they get out and/if they start working again (my strong feelings about THAT )

My solutions.
If a cop has a weapon, he should show more restraint when using the weapon. There will be acceptions.
or.
A cop is not allowed to carry a gun. For this to work though, guns would have to be outlawed in the U.S.

I agree that IF there is a problem cops should show restraint. As it hasn't been shown yet, this is up in the air.

I also agree to the second solution, but more for the criminals than for the cops. It'd be alot easier if the CRIMINALS didn't have the guns.

Still waiting for proof the CIA was behind T. Square...

[Edited by Spiderman on September 7th, 2000 at 08:18 AM]

 

[Ura]

As for what you say about cop-killers, granted I don't like the idea, but these days, cops are also armed with impressive weaponry, such as automatic weapons.

Standard police armorment to the best of my knowledge is:
1 9mm berreta pistol with 2 extra clips of ammunition
1 hand held pepper spray dispenser
1 night stick
1 bullet proof vest (ain't kevlar great? )
and in Canada at least,
1 12 gauge pump action shotgun in each police cruiser between the driver and passenger seats.

No automatic weapons here.
Automatic weapons are NOT standard issue to any police force in the US or Canada. Automatic weapons such the MK5 (I think thats the name) are issued to SWAT teams and other specially trained units because SWAT teams are called in when the situation demands for a higher level of force. As long as we don't live in a police/military state, you'll never see the standard officer walking or driving his beat packing a machine gun of any kind, and SWAT teams don't do standard patrol work.

And very few criminals have access to body armor.

Ok, this is just plain false. Body armor, at least kevlar vests and flak jackets are very easy to aquire, especially in the US, where there is a subtle black market presence carrying it and places such as army surplus and "survivalist" shops carry items like that in standard inventory. When you combine that with the net dealers and the fact that criminals can get items such as uzi's and explosives, there is no doubt they can get body armor.

As for the fact about prisons having cable and gym equipment:
a.) Very few prisons that know of have that.
b.) It's for the rehabilitation of the criminal.

Actually, ALL large prison facilities have cable tv and gym equipment. The bigger ones even have their own mechanics shops and other industrial type wookshops (woodworking and the like), which the inmates must maintain themselves of course, with the use of taxpayer dollars. This is all thanks to orginizations that go on benders for the so called "human rights" (don't get me started on this ). The way the American and Canadian criminal justice system is written, criminals have more rights than the police or the victims of the crimes they commit.
Personally I think alot of those criminals should just be throw in a cell and have the keys recycled into soda cans. Prison sentences are supposed to be a deterent because they're miserable, unfortunatly prisons have slowly been transformed into uncomfortable to live in social clubs.
Rehab of criminals is a poor excuse to waste millions of tax payer dollars that could be used on something like education and medical care for children. Especially when alot of criminals that get these wonderful gifts (cause they sure didn't earn them) are lifers and supposed "hard timers".
It all comes down to pick and choose I suppose for who should get a chance at rehab and who shouldn't, because I do believe that some criminals do deserve a second chance. But there are some who shouldn't ever see the light of day again too.
But then, rehab isn't about watching 'Who wants to be a millionair' and pumping iron, its about giving them skills and integrating them into society so that they'll be doing something and feel useful for it so that they won't go back down the wrong road to the state pen.

 

[Jaws10387]

TAG GUARD

quote:
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As for what you say about cop-killers, granted I don't like the idea, but these days, cops are also armed with impressive weaponry, such as automatic weapons.
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Ok as far as i know in the US nobody with the exception of very elite forces cary auto weapons. Around here There arms they carry is pretty much the same as where Ura lives. I don't think even the FBI or the CIA are allowed to carry auto weapons unless they are in an elite force like a swat team.

 

[Multani]

DAMN IT!
You can't have a debate with everyone against you now can you?! No one has different opinons?
(Regains composure.)
Well, I wouldn't know anything about the black market. That's a different story. Really, how many reports on the news do you see, in which it states that the criminal was wearing Kelvar. Only terrorists or really organized crimials use them.

 

[Ura]

You are correct.
For the most part only terrorists and orginized criminals use body armor is true. The reason. Small time crooks and punks holding up mom and pop style corner stores have no real need for it. To them there is no point in spending $300+ on a kevlar vest when your ride is right out the door and your going to escape almost gauranteed.

But the fact remains that they COULD get kevlar vests and body armor if they wanted to. Thats all I was trying to say.

As for news reports. Most situations never even make the news unless something gets blown up, a bunch of people get shot, or it takes a couple hours to diffuse. I'd be willing to bet there are alot of cases that never make nation wide headlines of people trying to hold up a bank of something and having a vest. Most situations are diffused quickly and culprits get caught. Nothing much to report for the media.

 

[nodnarb24]

Tag Guard

Multani,
You will never see reports about criminals wearing kevlar vests because local news reports small crime sprees or local murder and the big news organizations only concentrate on big crimes like riots and terrorism. Criminals wearing kevlar vest are in that shadow area in which the news hides from the public.

Also I think police have plenty of restraint on there weopons. If you actually ask policemen(or women) about 80% never shot there firearm, 15% more would say they shot it on one or two occasions, and the last 5% shot on 3 or more occassions.

Most large prisons actually do have cable TV, a weight room, metal shops, class rooms, rec rooms, libraries, and computer labs. The cable TV is usually just one TV in the rec room. The metal shops, class rooms, libraries, and computer labs are geared to get the inmates a job after they get out or to pass the time. The weight room is usually used to passed the time. I know this prison stuff because my Uncle works as a prison guard.


I think this is the longest post i have typed.

 

[Spiderman]

Chill, chill... I haven't read your latest PM (I usually save those for last) so I hope I'm not repeating stuff here...

I agree that it's hard to hold a debate when it seems like it's one against many. However, it appears that either no one agrees with your original question or they're not bothering to chime in. So of course you get the people (like us ) who are against it.

The point is that it appears that except for yourself, no one feels that the American police have too much power (I haven't re-read the entire thread again so correct me if I'm wrong) and rather, people feel the criminal/legal system is too lenient on the bad guys. That's all <shrug>.

So where's Political Corner #3?

 

[Multani]

Prehaps my inital conclusion was based on negative information.
I agree, that my views should have been mre impartial.
Political Corner #3 is next month.

 

[dw51688]

I love your little political corner's, In general I love you Multani (strictly as a friend).