Male Attitudes in Magic

Discussion in 'General CPA Stuff' started by Spiderman, Sep 11, 2014.

  1. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

  2. Mooseman Isengar Tussle

    "Star City Games Open Series tournament — the country’s biggest competition for the fantasy card game Magic: The Gathering"

    Mostly I have seen that many MTG players have little social skills and are tested to the limit of male/female interactions.
    There has always been a bit of harassment in the organized play area, like pro-players/noobs, one store vs another, etc.....

    But the offensive language and harassment have always been enforced at the events I go to, but every year or so, the judge community will have certain things that are getting more scrutiny and/or clearer enforcement philosophies.
  3. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Hm. It could be online; reading it again, that's seems to be the main gist. Too bad we don't have our females like Almindra? (see, forgot her name already!), Purple Jester, Whimsical, or Griffith_se anymore...

    You know the media, could be overblowing or hyping it up, so I wanted to get other viewpoints of people who have also been to these events...
  4. turgy22 Nothing Special

    Holy crap! A Magic write-up in the Washington Post. Our game is famous now.

    Here are my thoughts.
    First of all, the article was extremely poorly researched (as evidenced by the esteem given to the SCG tournament), patently biased and seemed to paint a large group of people with the same generalizations that it seems to frown upon. I abhor these types of stereotypes, as they have no place in the world at all. Especially on the internet (although the article was probably circulated in print as well.) Now, if the WaPo really wanted a decent article, they would have had a man write it.

    Having said that, allow me to generalize. No, wait. All0w me to state the obvious. Men and women are different. Not just physically, by psychologically. This is not to say that there isn't a large overlap in personalities and interests, but men and women tend to be drawn toward different interests. That's why you're more likely to see a man working on his car, closely following a professional sports team, or riding a motorcycle. And you're more likely to see a woman taking a dance class, shopping at an arts and crafts store, or gardening. It's not that any woman can't, isn't interested in, or is excluding from doing the things that men do or vice versa. It's just that genders are more likely to participate in certain activities. Males are more likely to be drawn to fantasy media. Males are more likely to be interested in strategic gaming (which is much different than video gaming). Males tend to be more competitive. Thus, a fantasy card game is more likely to draw males than females, especially at a competitive level.

    Now that you all understand the difference between boys and girls, let's take things one step further. Not all males are drawn to games like Magic. Magic players tend to get into the game as teenagers. They also tend to be more socially awkward than other males. When you have a large group of people and a larger percentage than normal is socially awkward and raging with hormones, you're going to hear some socially awkward things. Now add a few females to this group and the awkwardness increases. Because many Magic players don't regularly interact with women, they say stupid stuff or stare at body parts that they don't possess. Now, when you take that same group of people and give them the anonymity of the internet, of course you're going to get some disgusting and overtly sexist comments coming out. (Though this is much more indicative of the internet culture than the MtG culture.)

    In short, I think this writer takes a very narrow view of the MtG community and is attempting to make it seem like it's not welcoming of all types of players, when it's really just a handful of buffoons who either don't know how to properly interact with the opposite sex or are just a-holes. Period.

    *That last "period" was not intended as a sexist joke, btw.
  5. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I agree with all of your thoughts, including this one, but this in particular happens to actually smacks me of stereotyping itself. Just because someone may be "socially awkward", does that mean they necessarily would say stupid stuff? Their socially awkwardness would cause them to just clam up. Plus, I can't believe none of these guys have sisters where they might deal with females.

    And frankly, everyone is going to "stare", whether it be looking overtly or sneaking a peek, socially awkward or not. That's just guys. (Stereotype! :) )

    I re-read yours just to make sure and I guess you're doing the generalization thing (with the "having said that clause") so I can see what you're saying but I still think for my generalization they should have had some female contact, enough not to make saying stupid stuff the norm.
  6. Mooseman Isengar Tussle

    But it doesn't have to be the norm, just enough to make it seem that way.
  7. turgy22 Nothing Special

    Actually, for most of my generalizations, I'm speaking from personal experience. I grew up with a sister (and a mother, fwiw), but those sort of interactions are completely different than interacting with "girls" if you will. It wasn't until I was in a committed long-term relationship that I really started interacting with female friends, acquaintances and even strangers in the same way that I would interact with a male. Prior to that, there was always some subconscious need to say clever things around girls, even if I wasn't even attracted to the other person. And, of course, one man's definition of clever is the rest of society's definition of stupid.
  8. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I don't know, if it's happening enough to make it seem that way, it seems that's the norm.

    Well, obviously personal experiences vary, but generally speaking :), the sister will have friends with whom you interact and helps to develop your inter-sex behavior. If you're shutting yourself away from family and family friends anyway, yes, that doesn't help, but I have a hard time believing the majority of M:TG players grew up that way. Call me naive, I guess, just like what I thought about Child's thief in the other thread :)
  9. Mooseman Isengar Tussle

    Perception is rarely the actual norm. Look at on-line and cable news (US only)... they are not even close to the norm, but people perceive them to be.
  10. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    True dat. But that's why I was asking for your experiences, of what you've actually seen with your own eyes at these events.
  11. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I still haven't responded to this? Well, better late than never...

    Turgy already covered what's wrong with this.

    I hate Star City Games with an inexplicable passion, but, big as they are, we can all agree that SCG Opens aren't the biggest competitions for Magic. That's just objectively incorrect.

    Well, that's kind of weird. Wait, High Tide? That card essentially doesn't exist outside Legacy and the only people who play it in Legacy fall into one of two groups...

    1. Gluttons for punishment who still want High Tide to be a good combo deck. They have dreams about Frantic Search being unbanned and think that it's real, then they wake up and slowly realize that Wizards of the Coast still isn't unbanning cards in Legacy anymore.

    2. People who have too much money, so they build decks with Guru Islands, Candelabra of Tawnos, and such. They'd use foil Force of Will if it existed.

    Anyway, SCG Opens are the biggest Legacy events in North America (excluding some WotC events), but Legacy isn't generalizable to the rest of Magic. And the Legacy crowd isn't necessarily like the rest of the community.

    Trolls? On the internet? Stop the presses!

    I got involved in Magic when I was young, and that was even in the 1990's, and I'm pretty sure that everything in this paragraph is wrong. It wasn't invented as filler between rounds of D&D. And no one on the planet got into Magic due to not being cool enough for video games. Come on.

    This is kind of true. Firstly, those who play in tournaments don't necessarily represent everyone who plays the game. Secondly, Magic is now over 20 years old. While it started out as something demographically less diverse, many players stick around as they get older, and they often introduce the game to family and friends.

    There have been a couple of high-profile female tournament players for over a decade. It's not that new. Also, this part reads as very condescending.

    You know what else isn't healthy for the game? Star City Games. Jerk.

    Misleading. They're counting people who play Bejeweled on their smart phones as "computer and video game players" here. Yes, I checked.

    This is a misconception I've encountered a lot. Outsiders see some seemingly male-dominated community as a boy's club, but it's actually not a boy's club, but a sausage fest. It's not male-dominated because females are pushed away. It's just male-dominated because it developed in some way that the people who were drawn to the community were mostly male. That's a very important distinction. Women and girls have been involved in mostly-male gaming communities the whole time. It's not that they're unwelcome.

    Eh, I'll leave this one alone. They're talking about the Lady Planeswalkers Society, which I kind of like.

    I don't buy it. Yeah, the game has some awkward kids and some people that are just jerks. I've played against a few jerks myself. And it's not like they won't be jerks to me, but they'll change their approach depending on the audience. A guy who's a jerk probably isn't going to try to make sexual remarks toward me, beciause he doesn't think it'll provoke me in that way. If you're a woman, and even if you're not, you're eventually going to run into jerks at tournaments. How you react is up to you. I prefer to ignore it unless it goes too far. I guess you could also opt to blog about it? But "speculating about her underwear"? Like she sits down to play a match and her opponent is all, "I'd guess that your underwear are dirty"? Nah, something fishy is going on here...

    I don't know anything about Andy Bruce, but I am familiar with Anita Sarkeesian. Without going into detail, I'll just say liar, liar, pants on fire.

    Or maybe it's a total lack of journalistic integrity by a certain reporter at the Washington Post? Who knows, really?
    turgy22 likes this.
  12. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Step 1: Cite dubious examples of some behavior.
    Step 2: Psychoanalyze the behavior without actually examining any details.
    Step 3: You have a Washington Post article!

    Again, there's just the assertion that some behavior, which hasn't been explicitly defined, can be attributed to some psychological factors. This isn't even close to rigor.

    That more women are playing in tournaments than in the past is true, and I'd think it's a good thing, but all that it shows is that more women are playing in tournaments. That fact does not itself establish other claims as being factual.

    Hypothetically, if players did view Magic, or at least the tournament scene, as some sort of clubhouse, and if they flocked to it because they didn't fit in elsewhere, how do you think they'd react to newcomers impelling changes, such as restricting their conduct? Wouldn't that explanation make a lot more sense than "irrational defensiveness"? Again, I don't think these claims stand up to scrutiny (some hypothetical disenfranchised teenager who viewed Magic tournaments as an exclusive space for him and his ilk and is hostile to outside invasion back in the 1990's would now be in his 20's or 30's). But this half-baked attempt at psychoanalysis doesn't even hold up if its silly premises are granted.

    This doesn't mean that they were unwelcoming in the past.

    Good for her?

    Well, that's because she's playing Spiral Tide instead of a Delver deck. Scrub.

    Keep the dream alive, Spiral Tide players.
  13. rokapoke Man Among Gods

    Oversoul, your lampooning of the article is clearly sexist.

    Wait, I forgot to use the sarcasm font.

    Anyway, I thought the most telling quote (I only looked at the article for three seconds just now) is:

    I would definitely say that Magic is inherently a sausage fest, as you characterize it, Oversoul -- not due to exclusivity but due to the initial draw to males. Over time, maybe it corrects closer to 50/50 (but I think 70/30 is probably where it would max out, personally). Either way, this article was clearly heavily biased in such a way to serve as click bait, it would seem.
  14. turgy22 Nothing Special

    I don't know how I missed this earlier. Now, I'm not the most educated person on gender roles in society, but based on that classification and her totally gender-reassigned name (Feline / Felix?) I'm guessing that Ms. Longmore was born with boy parts. If that's the case, doesn't this kind of make her fall into the young unpopular white male stereotype that the author tries to establish at the beginning of the article? Doesn't she realize that the Magic community is riddled with overtly effeminate young men?
  15. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Just saw that on the same day I finally got around to this thread, she happened to earn another top 8 finish at a SCG Legacy open with Spiral Tide. Living the dream. That deck...

    Anyone want to trade me a playset of Candelabra of Tawnos for super cheap?

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