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Nightstalkers
Guest
Do you think that being banned from tournaments by the DCI is a fair punnishment for someone who forgot to shuffle their deck?
Killer Joe
New member
I'm not sure but I think there are "pre-set" penalties for any infraction. And if forgetting to shuffle your deck qualifies someone to get banned then that's how it is, like it or not.
If the judge had a choice of what poenalty to hand-down and banning was the most sever and warings and other stuff were also available then the judge calling is either sadistice or his "pity" mechanisim is broken.
As for the player, c'mon, whointhehell forgets to shuffle their deck? Personally, before determining the penalty I would want to know how the cards in the deck lined up. As an honest player the momnent my opponent called the judge I would avoid touching my deck so that evidence would be un-altered and if the judge wanted to they could see that my deck was not 'stacked', forgeting to shuffle my deck would mean most of my lands would be on-top because I scoop them last and seperately and put them on top before my regimented shuffling procedure.
As a dis-honest player I might want to right away shuffle my deck so that it looks random by the time the judge gets there. But HEY, that's just me, I'm just a bit paranoid.
If the judge had a choice of what poenalty to hand-down and banning was the most sever and warings and other stuff were also available then the judge calling is either sadistice or his "pity" mechanisim is broken.
As for the player, c'mon, whointhehell forgets to shuffle their deck? Personally, before determining the penalty I would want to know how the cards in the deck lined up. As an honest player the momnent my opponent called the judge I would avoid touching my deck so that evidence would be un-altered and if the judge wanted to they could see that my deck was not 'stacked', forgeting to shuffle my deck would mean most of my lands would be on-top because I scoop them last and seperately and put them on top before my regimented shuffling procedure.
As a dis-honest player I might want to right away shuffle my deck so that it looks random by the time the judge gets there. But HEY, that's just me, I'm just a bit paranoid.
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Nightstalkers
Guest
Well, his opponent did cut the deck after a slew of trasmutes
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orgg
Guest
Highly situational, and 'from the DCI' is quite stiff, unless Cheating was suspected.
Otherwise, it would probably be Procedural Error--Major, and carry a game or match loss with it. At least if I was in the judging seat.
Otherwise, it would probably be Procedural Error--Major, and carry a game or match loss with it. At least if I was in the judging seat.
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EricBess
Guest
I don't even think that's a question, really. I mean "forgot to shuffle"...what does that mean?
If a player's cards are all land, then all instants and sorceries, then all creatures, for example, I would be hard-pressed to believe that anyone would be willing to DQ a player for that.
On the other hand, if a player had a perfectly stacked setup for his deck and his excuse was "I forgot to shuffle", then I'm going to have strong reason to believe that he cheated.
In short, I would never DQ a player for forgetting to shuffle, but I would be more than happy to DQ a player for cheating, even if he claims he "forgot to shuffle."
If a player's cards are all land, then all instants and sorceries, then all creatures, for example, I would be hard-pressed to believe that anyone would be willing to DQ a player for that.
On the other hand, if a player had a perfectly stacked setup for his deck and his excuse was "I forgot to shuffle", then I'm going to have strong reason to believe that he cheated.
In short, I would never DQ a player for forgetting to shuffle, but I would be more than happy to DQ a player for cheating, even if he claims he "forgot to shuffle."
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Notepad
Guest
What is the basis of this question, NS? Was it a real event? If so, what is the actual wording of the punishment and charge. Just like in Magic, DCI wordings make all the difference, even if one word is left out or changed. It possible this could be forgetting to shuffle, or "insufficient randomization" as they call it, which could mean it wasn't shuffled enough rather than not at all.
There are repeat infractions increments in the DCI punishment system. If this was the guy's fifth time not shuffling, it doesn't matter that it might be the first time for the event, the DCI probably decided it was time to be heavy handed about it.
I woulda gone with KJ's response to the idea--check the deck. The guy could be cheating. Then again, he could just have actually forgotten. Could've been tired, distracted by outside issues (maybe he had to sleep on the couch last night), or he even could be a little slow (Magic players aren't all chess geek super brains, you know).
There are repeat infractions increments in the DCI punishment system. If this was the guy's fifth time not shuffling, it doesn't matter that it might be the first time for the event, the DCI probably decided it was time to be heavy handed about it.
I woulda gone with KJ's response to the idea--check the deck. The guy could be cheating. Then again, he could just have actually forgotten. Could've been tired, distracted by outside issues (maybe he had to sleep on the couch last night), or he even could be a little slow (Magic players aren't all chess geek super brains, you know).
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HOUTS
Guest
Noone was/is banned by WOTC for "forgetting to shuffle" but for the intentionality of cheating. That intention was/is determined by a judge based on information (facts) given.
See, I answered your question with two sentences.
How hard was that?
-HOUTS
See, I answered your question with two sentences.
How hard was that?
-HOUTS
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BigBlue
Guest
A DCI judge is an agent of the DCI, so... if a judge (assuming official for the sake of this discussion) deemed it as cheating, it was cheating as far as the DCI is concerned and would therefore merit a ban.
How can one tell if a deck is *stacked*? it is possible, however unlikely, to get a shuffle of "Land, Spell, Creature, Land, Spell, Creature...." and hopefully no one would be that stupid.... If *I* were going to stack a deck, it'd be more like 4 lands in the opening hand, then a good draw of all castable things, mixing in lands to get you to the spells you have... then, I would want the rest of my lands at the bottom... so I wouldn't be drawing them....
I hate to make assumptions... but it is likely this "hypothetical" person had suspicion for a while - and not from 1 game where they say they "forgot to shuffle".
A real winner never cheats, and cheaters never really win. They cheat themselves out of the pride of winning honestly, if they are successful, and if they are unsuccesful it just shows how completely bad they are when they can't even win when cheating.
[/soapbox]
How can one tell if a deck is *stacked*? it is possible, however unlikely, to get a shuffle of "Land, Spell, Creature, Land, Spell, Creature...." and hopefully no one would be that stupid.... If *I* were going to stack a deck, it'd be more like 4 lands in the opening hand, then a good draw of all castable things, mixing in lands to get you to the spells you have... then, I would want the rest of my lands at the bottom... so I wouldn't be drawing them....
I hate to make assumptions... but it is likely this "hypothetical" person had suspicion for a while - and not from 1 game where they say they "forgot to shuffle".
A real winner never cheats, and cheaters never really win. They cheat themselves out of the pride of winning honestly, if they are successful, and if they are unsuccesful it just shows how completely bad they are when they can't even win when cheating.
[/soapbox]
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EricBess
Guest
Not quite, BB. If a judges deemed it as cheating, it was cheating as far as the DCI is concerned and would therefore merit a DQ from the tournament. Whether or not a ban is warrented on top of that would be decided by the penalty committee based on statements by the TO, the judge in question, the head judge, the player, and potentially from other witnesses.
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Nightstalkers
Guest
The judge was the kid's father...
And there was the normal snickering that he was stacking his deck by the other players around...
And there was the normal snickering that he was stacking his deck by the other players around...
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orgg
Guest
The situation smells fishy, Nightstalkers.
May we have the name of said DCI judge to look him up on the Judge Database?
May we have the name of said DCI judge to look him up on the Judge Database?
Killer Joe
New member
Cool, a data base? This summer I'll be on it!
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BigBlue
Guest
Correct EB... my "would merit" in the first paragraph should have been "could merit...." Sorry, if I mislead anyone... Thanks for catching that.
As for it being a father son thing... that's just plain wrong... he should have taught his kid better... I don't let my boys cheat, in fact the rule in my house is if I catch them cheating I will stop playing with them. That is enough of to deter them. and by cheating I mean stacking the deck, lying about life totals, misrepresenting cards, etc... their kids, they make mistakes... you correct them and move on. The biggest thing I have to constantly argue with my oldest (11), he seems to think you can use 1 creature to block multiple attackers... and sometimes he thinks his attacker can only be blocked by one creature... that's the problem with so many exception cards... they start thinking those are "rules"...
As for it being a father son thing... that's just plain wrong... he should have taught his kid better... I don't let my boys cheat, in fact the rule in my house is if I catch them cheating I will stop playing with them. That is enough of to deter them. and by cheating I mean stacking the deck, lying about life totals, misrepresenting cards, etc... their kids, they make mistakes... you correct them and move on. The biggest thing I have to constantly argue with my oldest (11), he seems to think you can use 1 creature to block multiple attackers... and sometimes he thinks his attacker can only be blocked by one creature... that's the problem with so many exception cards... they start thinking those are "rules"...
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orgg
Guest
Contact Andy Heckt, or whomever the DCI site says to contact. Your membership may have expired without your knowledge; they're suppose to send notification of expiration, but sometimes you don't recieve them.Mooseman said:Not all judges are listed on the website. I know a few judges that aren't listed.
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