Jane Fonda

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arhar

Guest
Gee, this is completely, absolutely different situation!!! Yes, I've read 1984. Jane Fonda's ACTIONS, not WORDS, were treacherous. She betrayed american soldiers by giving their notes to the Vietkongs officers, resulting in more tortures for them. You don't think it's a treacherous behavior? You think it's still one of the American democratic freedoms to behave like that?
 

TomB

Administrator
Staff member
Though I have to admit the choking part was kinda' unneccessary...

Look - The same American freedoms you are willing to die for are the same freedoms that allow her to say and do as she pleases. You cannot claim to love America, but at the same time want her executed for saying what she feels - it's completely contradictory.

OTOH, I understand your anger, and I wonder why anyone would be so callous as to put her into a spotlight on this issue, given her Anti-American feelings in the past, but then, I'm sure they were looking to incite reactions like yours by broadcasting what she said.

Apparently, from the text you wrote, that's exactly what happened...:mad:
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
First, read here to find out some more info. Specifically, the story of her turning in slips of paper is FALSE. Some other parts are true however.

The ending of the link pretty much says it for me:
Whether the war was right or wrong, those who risked (and gave) their lives fighting it deserve respect, and for Fonda to brand men who were held captive and tortured as "liars" and "hypocrites" (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) in order to defend her political views was and is unpardonable.
She has the right to free speech and her views just like anyone else, but specifically branding other's reputations is going a bit too far.

Now, about Gizmo's predictament. I am also heartily shocked and outraged that people from the CPA would have done such things to you. If you EVER have an inkling of who did it, PLEASE send the admins the information. That stuff is deserving of prompt banning, no questions asked and no excuses. If those people aren't mature enough to refrain from such actions, they don't deserve to explain themselves.

Also, I also encourage you to express your views, but you gotta realize, sometimes what you say doesn't "translate" well across the screen; in person to person, one might term it as "sarcastic" or "arrogant", which may be why you might get some more "vigorous" replies than necessary or usual. Perhaps you don't care, in which case all I can say is you have to expect such replies, but just as a suggestion, if you DO care, perhaps you can read it over again or ask someone else (if it's lengthy) before sending it to see what kind of tone you're sending.
 
M

mogg bomber

Guest
Uh, well, I definitely can't say I support her actions during Vietnam, because that is more than a little extremist. I do agree with her views though, just the method was all wrong. I also agree with her views for this current "war" on terrorism.

As for Gizmo, I honestly can't believe someone on this site would send death threats and virus's to you. I just hope it was someone who doesn't post, and just reads the messages, because it would be a terrible thing to find out that someone on here would sink that low. :(
 
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Gaelic

Guest
I'm new here, but I have to comment anyhow.

I KNOW someone who was at the Hanoi Hilton when Fonda commited the acts mentioned above. He is mentioned in John McCain's book about his experience there. He lives in my parents' neighborhood. His daughters went to school with my younger brothers. I saw his scars at the neighborhood swimming pool one day when I was a teenager and asked my own father about them and he told me, in general terms, what had happened. I was curious, so my father arranged for me to talk to him about what happened. He told me that very story well before anyone but Al Gore was surfing the internet. Thus, I believe it to be 100% true. This man was one of the one's who gave her his number. He was one of those beaten and he still bears the scars.

Jane Fonda is a traitor, without question. She want beyond free speech and association to actually aiding the enemy. The tradition penalty for such an action is death. That is only mitigated when we can gain from keeping that person alive as with the spies we have caught over the years. She serves no purpose to us, and should therefore stand trial and be executed. Frankly, I wouldn't cross the street to piss on her if she was on fire.
 
G

Goku

Guest
People are going to express their opinions. Some are smart, some are not so smart. Some, like Jane Fonda, are highly objectionable, at least to the local populous; in this case, American citizens.

Often, in these cases, the people who express opinions of this type feel that they are more intelligent than the masses. They feel that only they, and a select few, are smart enough, and humane enough to see things as they truly are.

They feel as though that they are the only ones who can truly empathize with humanity, even though most of humanity is, in these people's view, not smart enough to understand it themselves. And when asked if they think that the general human populous is seemingly not intelligent, then these people will say something to the end of "No, they're smart enough."

Which would be lying to themselves and others.

Now, one must consider the fact that it is true that eveyone does have the right to express their opinions, and that the right is protected by law.

Let them.

These people will live their lives thinking that they are enlightened, that they have the correct views. They will become frustrated when others argue, and try to form connections within themselves. Some of them will believe that they will make great leaders of tomorrow.

Let them.

I have seen what happens to these people.
They keep their views throughout their life... their extended family, and resulting generations, will think differently. They will humor the person. In some cases, the person will be ostracized.

Let them.

On their deathbeds, at that instant before they die, it will all come.
They've been ostracized to some level.
They've kept themselves socially apart.
Even though they thought themselves one with humanity, they haven't been.
They've deemed topics petty that haven't been.

And then, the final painful strike-
They were wrong.

In that final, painful instant, they will experience anguish beyond much else.

And then, their light dies.

And their legacy... is nothing but a void.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Gaelic: Perhaps you should write to the author's of the web link I posted so that they might be able to check out your story, or you can give me the info (like the guy's name, unit and time served, etc) and I can contact them.
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
Goku. Very interesting. What if they were right and everybody else was wrong? Then as the end comes they are vindicated and everybody else suffers for having mistreated somebody on the base of their beliefs.

I think I AM more intelligent than the majority of people. If you ask me I`ll say openly 'Most people are thick'. Democracy lets thick people have a say in how the country is run - what sort of dumb idea is that? The further democracy expands the more say the masses have and the closer society sinks towards the lowest common denominator.

The ideal system is one of benign dictatorship. Unfortunately there is no way to guarantee that the dictator will be succeeded by somebody equally benign. No system is perfect, democracy is simply one of the easier to support and eases the conscience of liberals because it gives the masses a say in politics. This only serves to dumb down society and democracy DOES equal mob rule.
 
G

Gaelic

Guest
Originally posted by Spiderman
Gaelic: Perhaps you should write to the author's of the web link I posted so that they might be able to check out your story, or you can give me the info (like the guy's name, unit and time served, etc) and I can contact them.
I don't want to bring the guy into public life at all. Suffice it to say that he knows what goes on with Jane Fonda and can come out if he likes. I believe his story, and his experiences are backed up in that he is mentioned in John McCain's book, Faith of My Fathers . If he wants his name brought out again, I'll leave that to him.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
If I remain skeptical, but this seems like one of those things that the person would not want to keep hidden. Of course, it's understandable if he does but if this site says that it didn't happen AND has verified it with those named, then I'm inclined to believe them more.
 
G

Gaelic

Guest
I understand your skepticism (sp?). My only reasons for not pushing the issue is that I don't know him WELL and his wartime experiences are his own. He can make the choice to do what he wishes about those things. It just isn't my place to bring out his name myself.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
With cases like people falsely claiming to be Vietnam veterans and/or exaggerating or lying about their war experiences, you have to be careful, especially with a divisive issue (at least, I would think from those participants) like the Jane Fonda.

Let me ask this: do you remember if he claimed to be one of those mentioned in the email, one of Carrigan's group, or did he say if he was part of another incident of giving slips of paper to Fonda?
 
G

Gaelic

Guest
He did not mention any other participants by name, so I don't know if it was this particular incident. However, I doubt the POW's would have tried the same thing with the paper slips a second time after Fonda betrayed them the first time. I have met folks who faked their history. A great example of that comes from my time at Ft Hood. You may or may not recall an investigation around 3 years ago regarding an alleged massacre of Korean civilians by American troops at a bridge at Chipyong Ri during the Korean War. A guy who was very involved in the 1st Cavalry Division Association whom I had met several times and had seen speak as well gave a tearful interview on one of the nightly news magazines about what he saw there. After the media looked into his claims they found that not only did he lie about that, but that nearly everything he had told people for 45 years had been a lie. Thus, I know things like that can be faked. However, I have read about this guy in several sources over the years (I am a bit of a history buff) and I have met him, and all the stories corroborate each other so I believe it. In fact, I have never seen a credible source come forward to say "Hey, I was there and it didn't happen that way."
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
In fact, I have never seen a credible source come forward to say "Hey, I was there and it didn't happen that way
But that's one of the ways that the Urban Legends websites uses to debunk that particular part of the "rumor", that Carrigan himself said that it never happened. That's why I was asking if your guy might have said if he was part of that group, because having a list of names would make it easy to investigate whether they were involved or not.

Unless your statement was talking about his experiences in general and not this specific one...
 
G

Gaelic

Guest
He did talk about the piece of paper incident and I believe he said he was there (this was a conversation about 13 years ago). I do not recall him giving any other names.
 
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