Is this cheating?

[Istanbul]

So I'm playing Legacy with my playgroup (which is pretty much what we always play) last week, and I cast a Starstorn to clear the board. Mark, our resident duals-and-Morphlings guy, plays Reverberation. Now, I misread the card, and Mark probably did too; Reverberation only works on sorceries, and Starstorm is an instant. But I thought I was dead, and scooped.

Now, here's where it gets interesting.

About 30 seconds after scooping, after having shuffled my deck, I pause and say, "...I shouldn't be dead. That shouldn't have worked. Oh well.' And Evelyn, another player (who's very much the beginner, and who I have helped with trades and decks in the past) says, "Oh, I noticed. I just didn't say anything."

Now, to me, that's the same thing as Mike Long hiding a card in his lap. Knowingly participating in an infraction of the rules to your own personal benefit. I don't blame Mark; I suspect it's an honest mistake. But I'm pretty much done helping Evelyn, as I consider her to have cheated.

Now, here's the question...
Was she cheating?
Was she merely dishonest?
Is it her prerogative?
What do you think?

 

[Reverend Love]

She cheated to get you knocked out of the game. There is no room for interpretation. I think it was a poor display of character. No matter how bad I want to win, I'd never accept a tainted "w" like that.

 

[Gizmo]

In competition it's an offense to see a rules mistake and NOT call a judge. You're considered to be colluding with the (potentially deliberate) cheater.

In casual play I'd laugh it off - it's just a game. Maybe you need to chill out Isty... so you lost a game, so what? Laugh it off, everyone's friends right? Hardly worth falling out over.

And additionally... I've been in plenty of casual games where something like that would in fact be seen as a good play by Evelyn and she'd get kudos for thinking of it. Maybe that's just my playgroup, but if we get a knife in the back we just know to sharpen it up real good and give it back sometime opportune - all done with good humour though.

I don't really get why you're so wound up about it.

 

[Istanbul]

Yeah, I get offended by cheating and dishonesty. I'm weird like that.

 

[Chaos Turtle]

Well, I think it seems a bit dishonest; but you mention she's a beginner, so is it possible she just didn't feel it was her place? Seems to me like nothing more than a minor disagreement or misunderstanding. At worst I think this warrants a scowl and maybe a clarifaction of what you all consider fair play.

 

[Ephraim]

Since it was a casual game and DCI floor rules weren't technically in effect, I wouldn't call it cheating. It was, however, really dishonest. I wouldn't just quit helping her, but particularly if the rest of your playgroup approves/would approve (maybe talk to them first), you ought to explain to her that it's poor manners to let a feared opponent scoop just because he's misread a card. If you feel like being bitter toward her, you might mention that if she can't win by her own merit, perhaps she doesn't deserve to win.

 

[Gizmo]

It's just a game! Jeez, you're so judgemental. If somebody screwed me over like that I'd think it was funny.

 

[Ephraim]

Gizmo, it is a game, but it ceases to be fun when the other players do stuff like that. For example, technically Monopoly has a rule that if you don't notice that somebody has landed on your property by the time the dice are rolled next, you lose your chance to collect rent. If you step away to go to the bathroom and ask them to pause the game, but instead they all take their turns so they won't have to pay rent on your properties, they're not technically cheating, but they're playing dishonestly. This is the same sort of situation -- claiming "I thought he really did just want to concede, for no reason whatsoever," is not playing nicely.

 

[Reverend Love]

Maybe that's just my playgroup

I think Gizmo hit the nail on the head. Sounds like some groups tolerate/encourage this type of play, where in others its frowned upon.

Maybe we should just leave it at that.

 

[Gizmo]

I just don't see... I mean. You're playing with friends yeah... and you'd let this change the way you thought of somebody? It's such a piddling little thing, it's of no consequence at all... just how seriously do you take winning if you're going to turn it into such a big deal.

IMHO turning this into a big deal paints you as being a really bad loser who takes himself and the game WAY too seriously, and probably not somebody I'd want to play Magic with.

You shouldn't have lost, but you did. Shuffle up and start another game - there's no need to cry over it.

 

[Istanbul]

Well, Gizmo, maybe that is just your playgroup. Maybe your playgroup is the kind of group that encourages cheating and dishonesty. Maybe you like having the sort of playgroup where you constantly have to watch your back, because you never know when someone's going to try to pull a fast one. Maybe paranoia is fun to you. Me, I like a game where I can relax and have fun, and know that the rules are being followed not because I'm keeping an eye on everyone, but because that's how we play. And frankly, you're making a WAY bigger deal out of this than I am. You're the one crying about who's judgmental. You're the one who's wound up and screaming foul. And you're the one who's posted twice as much on this thread as I have (before this post). I think this post hit a nerve with you. I don't think you're as happy with your current group situation as you're trying to convince us.

Ephraim - I actually have spoken to my playgroup - they're pretty evenly split among cheating and dishonesty on this count.

CT - Actually, I mentioned to her that it was dishonest to do that, and she said, "I'd rather be a live thief than a dead loser." In those words. I think that's a pretty clear indication that she knew what she was doing was wrong, but didn't care.

 

[Gizmo]

The thing is - my group is the one who is laughing and having fun.

To me this just touches to the core of why you're playing Magic - you should be playing because it's fun to play the game regardless of whether you win or lose. The idea of kicking up a fuss because you lost in a friendly game just... to me... it seems like you're not playing the game because you enjoy it, but because you want to win.

If you want to play to win then play in a tournament, and in that situation (as I already said) it's a clearcut offence on her part. If you don't want to play to win, then it shouldn't matter if you lose.

 

[Istanbul]

That's funny...always having to watch your back and check to see if people are being dishonest and/or cheating doesn't seem like much fun to me.

As far as only playing to win if you're in a tournament...Gizmo, that's so stupid it's not even worth a response. I'll let others say what I'm thinking for me.

 

[Oversoul]

I voted that it was cheating, but I have mixed feelings about it. I have refrained from speaking up on similar situations myself. But it was normally where someone forgot that they could do something, not where they allowed something that could never happen strictly for personal gain. I think that acting the way Istanbul described about that is immature though. If I decided to keep my mouth shut in a multiplayer game in order to stay alive, I would either not mention it afterward at all or try to pass it off as a learning opportunity for the players involved (they won't be making that same mistake ever again, so in a way it's a good thing).

 

[Istanbul]

I tend to agree, Oversoul. Cheating is bad enough. Having the gall to speak up and mention that you cheated after the fact...

...well, I have a lot of words for that, but nothing I should post in a public forum.

 

[DÛke]

Thought it through as I was reading this circus and I conclude that the act was not cheating and not really dishonesty; very little of both and a touch of bad manners - that's all it is.

So many times have I watched people play, people who misread or misunderstood a card altogether, or forgot to pay an upkeep cost when the other player did not quite notice the fact...in most of the cases I did not say a word. I've seen few games lost and won because of such small mishaps. I don't say anything because first, it's not exactly my business, and second, if you're going to play a game, please learn how to play it, or confront the consequences, learn from them, and move on. And especially if you're not a new player: there is no reason to direct your attention to where your attention should already be directed, and if that's needed, then you don't need a play group, but good vacation. I am on Magic Online now, and I have lost at least 5 duels due to small mistakes and errors on my behalf: very early when I came back to the game I tapped 1 mana to play a Serum Visions at the end of my opponent's turn, little did I know it was a Sorcery. I did not know how to untap my land, or if untapping my lands was even possible, to avoid mana burn, so I just took the damage. My opponent did not say anything. I figured it out on my own, moved on, and played happily ever after.

At the end of the day when you go to bed, hopefully Magic is the last thing in your mind and a lot of other things are there instead...which brings me to an essential point often not considered seriously even by so-called "casual players": the one thing that you need to take seriously about this game is the knoweldge that it is just a game.

 

[Notepad]

Originally posted by Istanbul
CT - Actually, I mentioned to her that it was dishonest to do that, and she said, "I'd rather be a live thief than a dead loser." In those words. I think that's a pretty clear indication that she knew what she was doing was wrong, but didn't care.

I had agreed with the Turtly-One's thoughts there. After seeing your reply, yeah, I'd say it's cheating, though a second-hand type of cheat.

Real world analogy: A direct cheat would just steal crap from your home when they come over. A second-hand cheat wouldn't rob you up-front. They're the type who if you're splitting up a ticket after a group meal out might "neglect" to mention your math is off and you're "accidentally" covering their drinks or something.

All it really proves is she's a way more shady/cutthroat player than you're comfortable with. Probably best not to game with her.

It doesn't however, really reflect on her personal life. If she's a good friend, then I'd personally not let a gaming incident get in the way of that. Some people are much different in games than they are in their personal habits.

...then again, some people are the same shade no matter what they do. So, um, watch those split tickets....

 

[mythosx]

well let me ask you this isty. In your group is it clear that observers are to jump in and help with rules questions? It would help me understand the situation. In chess if you both make a mistake it stands. But there is no kibitzing. No outsiders may say anything. Now according to someone else, in Magic if you see anything it is your duty to call a judge. If thats the case then she is cheating. If it was like the prior example then its not really her place to say anything.

 

[Istanbul]

A fair question, mythosx. The fact is that rules help is often given, especially to the culprit in question (who doesn't know some of the finer points of things like phasing).

 

[jorael]

During tournaments both opponents are responsible for the state of the game. You HAVE to make sure your opponent doesn't forget someting or makes mistakes (rules-wise).

This should also be true in casual multiplayer games. If someone forgets his sundroplet effect (you may gain life) fine, but the life gaining is mandatory with e.g. Soul Warden. So in our group we usually remind players (if the remember the life gaining after a few turns, they gain all the life they had forgotten anyway, that's how the rules of Magic work).

Everybody should make sure that nobody screws up.