Intellegent Design?

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evan d

Guest
Evolution would not have occured as an all at once thing. Many little changes over millions of years.

Back to the small clusters of cells, about 10-20. They were all of once species of singlecell organisms, but by joining together. The cells on the inside of the clump would lose thier chlorophorm, but recieve enrgy from the outside cells.
 
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mythosx

Guest
Oversoul said:
What is the "life issue"?
Life from no life.

evan d said:
Evolution would not have occured as an all at once thing. Many little changes over millions of years.

Back to the small clusters of cells, about 10-20. They were all of once species of singlecell organisms, but by joining together. The cells on the inside of the clump would lose thier chlorophorm, but recieve enrgy from the outside cells.
Evolutionary theory currently involves huge leaps in evolution. It's pretty much necessary. There has never been any occurrance of what your are proposing. I have never heard of the theory nor have I seen an research on such a thing.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
mythosx: Is that "highly improbable" a personal opinion or the majority view?

And I thought current theories about how life started was that either something came from outer space to mix with whatever was on Earth at the time to start forming "life", or stuff currently on Earth mixed together.
 

Mooseman

Isengar Tussle
Spiderman said:
mythosx: Is that "highly improbable" a personal opinion or the majority view?
I have never seen this arguement before, so my guess is that it's a personal thing.

BTW - Mythosx, "huge" leaps in evolution does not mean going from having no heart to having one and the leap would still be over multiple generations, not in one fell swoop. Please include something to back up your statements, because I would hate to have to quote Duke..... :)
 
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EricBess

Guest
I'm just speaking for myself here (nothing to back me up other than common sense), but I think the "highly improbable" is fairly accepted, but the argument is that you have millions of years and infinite space in which the compinations could play themselves out. As such, everyone accepts the "highly improbable", but the argument is that people do occasionally win the lottery... Something about monkeys and Shakespeare... ;)

Personally, however, I think that the points he makes are fairly valid. In order to sustain life and develop complete systems, at some point there needs to be shifts that are probably larger than could actually be explained by evolution...but like I said, that's just me.

I think more to the point is, if you accept the theory of evolution, you are basically accepting that things evolve in such a way that bad mutations filter out as unviable and mutations that support life continue. However, that being the case, if you buy into the theory of man evolving from ape, it becomes necessary to explain what happened to the intermediate steps. Either they weren't viable, in which case the evolutionary process should have stopped any further mutation, or they were at one point viable, but then something changed which made the beginning and ending steps viable, but not the in-betweens.

Alternately, you could argue that both man and ape evolved from some other form, but then you still basically have to explain why things changed to make the pre-mutations no longer viable.

To me, this is more to the point. It's not enough to say that a bunch of single-celled organizisms can group together to form a higher function. I'm good with that. It's just that if the intermediate forms were viable, why are they not still viable? I personally don't believe I've ever seen that issue addressed.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
In general, that's why the "theory" is continually "evolving" (forgive the pun :) ). I don't think everyone said "this is the theory, we know all we know, and this is it". Scientists are continually find out more information that either adds or detracts from the theory.

Sorry about harping on the "millions of years" thing, but I honestly don't think any of us has a grasp of what that really means. I mean, look at Christianity. It's been around for 2000 years. And look at what's happened in history between then.

Now look at ancient Egyptian mythology. It was around for 4000-5000 years, about twice as long as Christianity! And it eventually fell apart. No one knows what happened exactly during that time period, but there's a rough idea and it's continually being filled in.

I'm not sure what you mean from the ape-to-man example. But right now, I'd say that each intermediate step was enough to move forward a little until the end result of today. There was an article in the paper within the last two weeks how the chimp has finally been genome-d. Another one related the theory that there has been two "major" mutations in some gene that sparked some creativity and advanced civilization much farther than it had been before - one was 3000 years ago and I think sparked communication in the written form and can't remember the other one. From samples, 70% of the them had the first mutated gene and 25% had the second (but can't remember if they were together or not).

Anyway, the point is things are being learned about evolution every day, which means holes are gradually being filled in.
 
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mythosx

Guest
Spiderman said:
mythosx: Is that "highly improbable" a personal opinion or the majority view?

And I thought current theories about how life started was that either something came from outer space to mix with whatever was on Earth at the time to start forming "life", or stuff currently on Earth mixed together.
That still doesn't explain how non living matter turns into living matter, it still begs the question where life began. I believe highly improbable is a widely accepted view. But since evolution is the only view presented then there is no flip side of the coin. If there is no flipside then no matter how improbable you have to kind of bet on the one side offered to you.

Spiderman said:
In general, that's why the "theory" is continually "evolving" (forgive the pun :) ). I don't think everyone said "this is the theory, we know all we know, and this is it". Scientists are continually find out more information that either adds or detracts from the theory.

Sorry about harping on the "millions of years" thing, but I honestly don't think any of us has a grasp of what that really means. I mean, look at Christianity. It's been around for 2000 years. And look at what's happened in history between then.

Now look at ancient Egyptian mythology. It was around for 4000-5000 years, about twice as long as Christianity! And it eventually fell apart. No one knows what happened exactly during that time period, but there's a rough idea and it's continually being filled in.

I'm not sure what you mean from the ape-to-man example. But right now, I'd say that each intermediate step was enough to move forward a little until the end result of today. There was an article in the paper within the last two weeks how the chimp has finally been genome-d. Another one related the theory that there has been two "major" mutations in some gene that sparked some creativity and advanced civilization much farther than it had been before - one was 3000 years ago and I think sparked communication in the written form and can't remember the other one. From samples, 70% of the them had the first mutated gene and 25% had the second (but can't remember if they were together or not).

Anyway, the point is things are being learned about evolution every day, which means holes are gradually being filled in.
Spiderman, this post isn't meant to be hostile. But this post goes to back up what my point exactly. It is irresponsible to say,"Evolution might be wrong but it doesn't matter cuz eventaully we will make it right." How is that different from saying "We can't prove god exists but some day we will." What if those holes don't get filled in? How long should we wait? At what point do you concede that evolution is wrong?
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
That still doesn't explain how non living matter turns into living matter, it still begs the question where life began.
I'm not familiar with the details, so I can't answer that.

Could the possibility exist that there has ALWAYS been living matter?

But this post goes to back up what my point exactly. It is irresponsible to say,"Evolution might be wrong but it doesn't matter cuz eventaully we will make it right." How is that different from saying "We can't prove god exists but some day we will." What if those holes don't get filled in? How long should we wait? At what point do you concede that evolution is wrong?
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that it is irresponsible to use the non-knowledge or holes in evolution and use it as proof that evolution must therefore fail.

Evolution could be proven wrong in the future or proven right. Your statements obviously show a bias in that you have already decided that it's false. However, science is always moving forward and actively proving or disproving its theories.

The same cannot be said for intelligent design. You either have to accept it or not. Barring any future communication with a "higher being" (which apparently hasn't happened in the past 2000 years, unlike the early history of the Bible).

So what I'm saying is either could be right. However, evolution is the only one that's continually seeking answers, which means both sides have to rely on its results to bolster their stance.
 

Mooseman

Isengar Tussle
mythosx said:
It is irresponsible to say,"Evolution might be wrong but it doesn't matter cuz eventaully we will make it right." How is that different from saying "We can't prove god exists but some day we will." What if those holes don't get filled in? How long should we wait? At what point do you concede that evolution is wrong?
Why is it that you insist that if there is one "hole" in the theory of evolution, that it is wrong? There are so many holes in your arguement and the ID arguement that by your logic it should be wrong too.

The broad concept of evolution:
The vast majority of scientists have long accepted that the Theory of Evolution broadly describes how animal and plant species grow, develop, and change over time.
Details of evolutionary development:
Knowledge of many specific details of evolution are unknown at this time. Details are only gradually being filled in. The full "'truth' can probably never be determined. Results must always be held open to extension, modification, even possible replacement." 2

2 # The Scientific Method: Ingredient #13 at: http://www.scientificmethod.com/

This is why the theory of evolution should be taught and not ID, in science classes.... it's science, not religion. Science is always trying to verify it's conclusions and fix or replace those that are inadequate or wrong, religion never questions it's conclusions.
If the religious fanatics of ID, and the like, want to teach their version, do it in church, that's what cults are for....... (strong sarcasm here)
 
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mythosx

Guest
When asked if evolution is a fact, a science teacher should always reply no. When asked if ID is possible a science teacher should reply it is possible. That is my point I am not saying evolution can not be true. I am saying we dont know enough to verify it. It is still lacking substantially to the point where it is wrong to teach it as fact, in which so many schools are teaching as a fact.
 
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DÛke

Guest
If a theory has a single hole, it is no longer a theory but an opinion, at best...or a dogma, at worst. The theory of Evolution is pseudoscience. Testable or not, what do we have here and today? We have a carpet with a lot of holes, so much that it is no longer a carpet. Why is it still believed, then? Easy:

A) There has been so much focus, thanks to a fanatical, uninformed World population to prove something that is flawed ("Evolution Theory") as opposed to look elsewhere for answers in regards to life, its processes and origins.

B) In the mind of the World population, the theory of Evolution has its own subtle tensions with the theory of Creation. That alone validates the theory - God, even as an idea, is a hated creature on Earth. Everyone wants to be God (as shown by the increased number of "liberation" and "freedom" movements which imply a sense of super-independence as far as each individual goes) to the extent that there is no room for the idea, or possibility, of God. The theory of Evolution is used satisfy the denying mind.

C) Psychologically and socially speaking, and I make this observation with the increasing materialism of the World: it is easier to believe something that is wrong (The Lie) that is functional...as opposed to something which is right (The Truth) but is practically useless. The theory of Evolution offers a lot of practicality in that in the minds of many it stops all questions about Creation, God, Origins, and man's destiny. The idea of God, on the other hand, is very detestable and is rather impractical - supposing that we are sincere enough with ourselves, we can then admit to ourselves that the ill-founded mind functions more sufficiently when an idea of a master or a watcher (i.e. "God") is erased or downplayed into nonexistence or triviality. Given the current state of the world, the distress that befalls almost every individual - however much they admit this or not - the state of loneliness, meaninglessness, the need to be beast-like, crude, and largly amoral is funded by the belief that there is no God, no meaning, therefore, "everything is possible." In other words, it gives the amoral, criminal, filthy mind its justification for doing what it does.

D) Supposing we take the leap into the belief that Evolution is essential and truthful. At that point, it is logically implied and proven that Man, as a species, had began at a very specific point in time, as a specific form, and evolved from that point. If the theory of Evolution is the truth, it would be even a greater proof of an intelligent designer as opposed to the random and seemingly spontaneous existence of Man. Therefore, in all cases, the theory of Evolution paves the path towards ID Theory, and not detracts from it. Which brings me to this point: the reason no one wants to accurately study and test the theory of Evolution is because if it is proven, IDT becomes that much more difficult to deny, and at that point, Man would have to lose his psychological comfort in knowing that there is a possibility of the inexistence of God...because...Man wants to be God, and thus hates the idea of an exterior, superior God. Hence, the theory of Evolution remains largely and for the most part as a "Theory" because otherwise, Man might have to give up his fantasy of being a God, at least on a psychological level.

However you argue with it, IDT becomes harder and harder to deny as scientists and laymen fumble around trying to find ways to disprove it...

Eventually the question ceases to be "Is there a God?" and becomes "Who is God?"
 
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mythosx

Guest
Spiderman said:
I agree, but do we know, in fact, that "so many schools are teaching it as fact"?

My high school science teacher taught it as a "Fact".
My college taught it as fact. My college also referred to any theories or notions of ID or Creation as "Creation Myths".

Every high school in the Bay Area in California teaches it as fact. Ill do more research. See the problem here?
 
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mythosx

Guest
Spiderman said:
So are you extrapolating your experience with "so many"?
Hey, if people are going to extropolate the existence of all species from a set of birds from galapogas, then im going extrapolate my expierence with many.
 
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DÛke

Guest
Mythosx:

Hey, if people are going to extropolate the existence of all species from a set of birds from galapogas, then im going extrapolate my expierence with many.
That is the funniest and yet most truthful statement I have heard in the past few months. Very interesting. :)

And Spiderman. To answer your question. Simple. Since the theory has been alive and well for over a century now, and since there is not yet any breakthrough as far as research regarding it, and since science at large has become more concerned with issues of the human gnome (to give an example), it is easily implied that the theory of evolution is, by now, only believed in as if in passing. It's not really cared for anymore. Whether you believe it or not, it doesn't any more difference than if you believe the sky was blue or black. It no longer presents an urgency. It is ignored...
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
mythosx said:
Hey, if people are going to extropolate the existence of all species from a set of birds from galapogas, then im going extrapolate my expierence with many.
Haven't you heard that two wrongs don't make a right? :rolleyes:
 
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