I have a question for any DCI Judges out there.

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BigBlue

Guest
What do you make of all this chatter on the Judge-List about people quitting the game because of Madness?

Is it really happening where you are?

I gave up judging a few years ago, mostly because no one asked me to come to tourneys anymore, as they stopped needing them for events and the registration fee wasn't worth paying. Also I don't get to FNM as much as I used to either, so I'm not really on top of any kind of Tourney scene. But the Judge list makes it seem that the game has been hampered dramatically by Madness.
 
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theorgg

Guest
What? That's madness!


pun intended.


I've not even been subscribed to the Judge list for some reason, actually...

Would you ask how to get subscribed for me?
 
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EricBess

Guest
Subscribing to the judge list is easy....just take and pass the judge test and then send in your paperwork and have dcijudge@wizards.com subscribe you. But you can only subscribe if you're a judge. If you go to the Sideboard judges site, you can see the archives of the judge list, so you can see all the rants.

Apparenly, as happens every once in a while (about once a year, I'd guess), there is a general stirring that people are upset with the game of magic and they are quitting for whatever self-righteous reason they give.

Okay, I'm being a bit critical here, but the point is that people quit quite frequently without making a big to do about it, so when a to do is made, it's typically because someone voices a rant. The next thing you know, several other people are on the bandwagon.

Most recently, one of the judges voiced frustration with the judging program in general. He asked James Lee to post a treatise on what are good reasons vs. bad reasons to become a judge. Okay, I'm not sure if that's what he meant, but the point is that he asked James Lee to respond stating why he (James) felt judges should have motivation to judge.

Bottom line is that if you look for compensation, it's not there, so there has to be more and many judges feel like that is a load of crap, so they leave.

Not wanting that to be the only reason, this particular judge sited Madness and how he thought it was ruining Magic (I'm paraphrasing here) because it should have only been a blue mechanic and not in all colors.

More judges jumped up and shouted that Madness was too complicated because it allowed stupid complications like Circular Logic and Worldgorger Dragon, which is ironic because the Dragon has nothing to do with Madness, but the madness that ensues when 2 or more enter play at the same time is far from simple (figure it out if you dare).

So, are judges leaving because of Madness? Some claim that madness is too complicated and players are quitting, leaving them with no one left to judge.

Madness, as a rule, is complicated. Madness, as a concept, is not. We've all heard stories about some wierd, obscure card interaction where some player says, "...that's stupid. If that's really how it is, I'm just going to quit..." Usually when they lose a game because they didn't know the wierd interaction. It almost never causes this reaction unless the game is on the line.

If they want to leave the game for this reason, I don't think I can stop them. However, usually, it is something larger. If they really enjoyed the game, they wouldn't quit for one incident. There is a larger issue and Madness is perhaps the proverbial straw...
 
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BigBlue

Guest
To be honest, I'm not sure if Madness isn't a cover.

The DCI's idea for Judges is pretty lame. Again, I may not have the most up to date info since I'm not really a judge anymore, so if I'm wrong, please correct me if you know otherwise. And my knowledge is limited to what I know most, Small tournaments, State Championships, and Junior Super Series (that's all I've been a party to in the remoteness of Montana.)

The DCI requires Judges to pay a paltry $25 per year to be a judge. Yes it's next to nothing, but they expect you to PAY to be a judge. What you get in return for that investment is the issue.

You get no official support from the DCI, what I mean by that is that unless you've invested enough time and money to become a high level judge (4 or higher), you in essence get nothing unless a tournament organizer gives you something out of the goodness of their heart. The TO get's no allotment of product to give to judges other than the product they get at reduced cost to use for running a tournament and as prize support. It depends on the size of the tournament how many boxes they get to buy at a reduced rate to run a tournament. So if a TO is feeling generous, you might get a half a box to spend all day breaking up arguements, making people angry, and generally getting bad karma. This is more than likely different at the higher levels of tourney's (pro tour, qualifiers, level 3+ judges, etc, but I've never been exposed to those and it's only an assumption.)

So a while back, a judge who was not happy with the Madness mechanic or the way the Judge program works had dinner with one of the mucky mucks in the DCI judge program. He asked what his incentive was to be a judge and got an answer he didn't agree with. He didnt' post the answer, instead he called out the guy to give it himself. Heretofore I haven't seen any response, but the judge list is littered with people questioning why they should remain judges, mostly in situations similar to my own, remote areas where they get no support from the DCI and feel intimidated enough by players to allow infractions to happen since it isn't worth the hassle of writing the players up.

Also some implication is being made that numbers have dropped at tourney's due to Madness (at least that's the excuse the players are informally giving) being too powerful.

As far as I'm concerned, I think madness is pretty powerful given the ease of applying it and the fact that generally you are getting 2 good effects with it. The problem isn't likely in T2 constructed as much as it is in limited. Given that the best madness cards are only common, as are the best engines to use them, you see them plenty. (my main experience here is playing MtGO tourneys, not actual ones). I guess it all boils down to Wizards saying they're slowing the game down (which you get the impression they are) and yet they produce some insane madness engines which speed it right back up again.

Anyways, that's what I have read and seen. I was just curious what others take was.

Orgg: I don't know how to get you on that list, As far as I know it is still restricted and you can't subscribe yourself. I recall sending an email to dcijudge@wizards.com or something like that which ewent to the Coordinator and they added you. Also you can visit wizards site, and the digests are posted there for all to see. I'll find it and post a link later. They used to be "secret", but they've since posted them for all to see, however only judges get access to get them or write to them. Not sure why I still get 'em. I haven't registered in a couple years.
 
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EricBess

Guest
Just one small update.

The DCI doesn't require judges to pay anymore. But, there realistically isn't any compensation that is more than an pat on the back considering the amount of time put it.

What it amounts to is that you have to find your own satisfaction somehow out of judging if you want to judge. There are a lot of reasons not to enjoy it and I think that most judges go through a period where they realize it's realistically not worth it and they have to decide whether they enjoy what it means enough to keep going.

BTW, I've heard the same thing about Madness being too powerful. I don't know if it's to the level of combo winter, though.
 
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BigBlue

Guest
Thanks for the reply.

One thing appears to me in reading even more of the replies, and by the way today there was a reply by James Lee (director of the DCI Judges) indicating that he will be posting his views on why people should judge. It is somewhat regional or ... maybe community size oriented. If I lived closer to a bigger magic community, I'm certain I'd still judge. And it has nothing to do with compensation (I hope that wasn't what came out of my earlier post). It is mostly about satisfaction. I'm satisfied by a successful tourney, not by whatever measly compensation I get. If I feel I didn't make any errors (not always the case in the complex world of MtG) and didn't have any real trouble with players, then I'm happy. It'd be a real treat not to be the only judge at a tourney as well. There were, last I knew, only 4 judges in Montana, and all of us were level 1. One of them was a store owner who only did it so he could run sanctioned tourneys and didn't have a clue about the game. He, like me, became a judge through the Arena league. That was the easy way to get a level 1, all you had to do was volunteer. there was a 10 question quiz which you took and graded yourself, and it didn't matter what your score was. :)

I've never made it to anywhere to be a part of the required "major" tourney's or been able to test for a higher level, that, and the lack of enough local tourney's to judge, is mostly why I don't consider myself a judge anymore.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Just a thought...

it occurred to me that if Garfield's vision was to make Magic on the par of other "sports" (or at least chess), it would seem paid or somewhat "professional" (whatever that may mean) judges would be in order. However, I have no idea if chess has such judges or if WOTC/Hasbro has the same vision as Garfield at the moment :)

It just seems slightly weird for a game with tourneys about 8 years old now doesn't have that "level" of judging but relies on volunteers...
 
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