Help with a R/B Punishment deck. BB: Sac 4 creatures?

[Force of Will Smith]

Hello all.
Ive noticed in the kamigawa set, there have been some new cards where you get punished for killing your opponent's foes. Zuberas work well, as do older cards like abyssal gatekeeper, Flametongue kavu, as well as wimpier cards like
bogardan firefiends.

With Betrayers we have crack the earth and cards like blizzard herder to make your opponent sac lands.

Pay R. everyone sacs a permanent, you sac a herder, both players sac a land.
If done early enough you could exchange 1 land for 2 and gain a tremendous advantage.


I'm thinking the Shirei, Gatekeeper (he's only 4B)/ or Lifeline. With seething song's or rituals it could blow up fast.. Picture this.

Lifeline/Shirei+ Bile Urchin for repeated Lifeloss.

Abyssals, Insidious bookworms
Ember-fist Zuberas

Kumano's Blessing and crushing blow for suprise damage/kill.

Shriveling Rot./Last Laugh.

Potentially Goblin Gardener+Frostling for repeat land destruction.
Possibly Shade's form, Deathcurse ogre (5B for 3 lifeloss).

Urborg Justice/ Chime of Night/Dying wail for punishment of killing creatures.

Urborg Firefiend.
Firetongue Kavu (with repercussion its 16 damage ).. umm yeah..
3R=4 game is a nice price.




Repercussion.

you have a bile urchin, zubera, Zubera enchanted with dying wail, Frostling,

Play last laugh. sac Frostling to deal 1 to opponents creature. Sac bile urchin to make them lose 1 life. 2 damage swarming, both zuberas get hit, all creatures die.

you have a Bloodfire dwarf.

you managed to somehow get out a repercussion.
Cast seething song for Furnace of Rath.

Blow up the dwarf for the game.. if they have 5 creatures. they take
1 to all.. which becomes 2 to all, which becomes 4 for each creature.

or if they have 1 creatures.. Blow up dwarf for 1, they take 4.. cast crushing blow to deal a creature 6,er,12, 24 to opponent.

i think the deck would have to maindeck furnaces, repercussions and seething songs.

have any ideas.


one of a few God hands.
T1: Mountain, bloodfire dwarf
T2: Swamp, Ashen Skin Zubera
T3: Mountain, Repercussion
T4: Seething song, furnace, crushing blow

Even a crappy hand would be incredibly annoying.

T1: Bile Urchin
T2: Frostling
T3: Blizzard Herder, Urchin
T4: Your opponent attacks... since urborg Justice is an instant.. sac 2 urchins, and a frostling, target herder with frostling. 4 creatures hit the grave, pay BB for urborg.. opponent sacrifices 4 creatures

I think people would originally think your playing complete junk.. until you pop out enough things to explode, or a rath or repercussion hits the table.

 

[Limited]

I like the Crushing Pain + Repercussion combo; but it is not going to work if the creature dies from the original damage.
As far as the Lifeline or Shirei question, i think both are going to give you trouble. With all that damage going around (dwarf) your Shirei is not going to live to see the day. I'd pick him over the lifeline anyway, because his effect only saves your creatures and not opponents' to.
I'd stay away from the furnace and the Bloodfire Dwarf and try to focus on Shirei. Use some sacrifice outlets like Attrition and Phyrexian Altar (and Crack the Earth) and hope that Shirei stays on the table that one turn; and don't play him until it can net you enough advantage.

 

[Force of Will Smith]

hmm.. Isn't crushing pain an instant though? If it is that it would totally work.

I think it's still reasonable to run 2-3 furnaces, simply because in a single turn you can kill all opponents. Based on what you're saying I should instead of trying to go out in one huge bang, to multiply effects.. say play a 1/1 sac him to kill a 2/2, when i sac the 1/1 everyone has to sac a 2/2, etc,etc,etc. This could also be a potentially hilarious multiplayer deck where opponent's were too afraid to attack you, then you make deals by decimating all creatures, or one in particular.

I put this together opting for creatures that trigger when they die like the firefiend instead of 187's like ghitu slinger so you can save your mana for raths and the like.

-Here's what i've come up with-
3 Bloodfire Dwarf (Game Winner)
3 Abyssal Gatekeeper (Stall)
3 Bile Urchin (Stall)
3 Akki Blizzard Herder/ Ember-Fist Zubera
3 Frostling (Stall)
3 Flametongue Kavu
2 Bogardan Firefiend

4 Crushing Blow
2 Urborg Justice
2 Seething Song

3 Furnace of Rath (Game Winner)
3 Repercussion
3 Grave Pact (Stall)
3 Last Laugh (Game WInner)

1cc:9
2cc:12
3cc:7
4cc:9
5cc:6

Bloodfire, furnaces, repercussions, last laugh, crushing blows and FTK are all potential game winners, with most of the others being stall.

I'm debating maindecking 4 seething, just because getting the extra mana for furnace can be so explosive.

Crack the earth currently isn't being run.
Not sure how effective it is, haven't play tested.
I might divide the 3 bile urchins between 1 gatekeeper, 1 frostling, 1 seething song.

I'd assume it's amazing early game but i think with all the global damage the akki's WILL blow up on their own.
-----------======
I agree with the shirei though, he is a measly 2/2.
If i'm running a shirei deck i might want to make it a spirit green deck with lifespinners+Shirei/Kyoki eclipse.

T1: Forest, Trapdoor spirit
T2: Forest, Trapdoor/ Hana Kami (trap is 0/2)
T3: Forest, Trapdoor/Hana Kami+Dripping Tongue Zubera
T4: Forest, Lifespinner

If using the Loamdweller or whatever his name is you could potentially turn this out

T1: Forest, trapdoor
T2: Forest, Loamdweller
T3: Forest, hana kami, forest in play, trapdoor, forest in play,

i dunno takes a lot of forests..

T1: Forest, Birds
T2: Forest, Trapdoor, Hana Kami
T3: Forest, Lifespinner
T4: Sac your spirits, get shirei in play. they all return, repeat.

 

[Limited]

hmm.. Isn't crushing pain an instant though? If it is that it would totally work.

I think it's a brilliant card in combination with the repercussion, but it doesn't matter if it is an instant or not (which it is, btw).
If you sac a dwarf, every creature gets one damage. When this damage is on the stack, you can't play crushing pain because nothing is damaged.
The damage resolves and all /1 creatures die.. you can't respond to this, because it is an part of damage resolution.
Now that the stack is empty, you can play crushing pain targetting a damaged creature (*which survived the initial damage*). Still a great way to kill larger creatures and to deal some massive damage with the repercussion.. but only if a creature survives. All I'm saying.

I have a BWG Last Laugh deck which has turned into a Grim Feast deck, because it is a great way to gain life in MP. Perhaps you could splash green for it? (and some sabertooth ants... and the green zubera? Ho wait.. i'm getting of track here...)

 

[Force of Will Smith]

true true.. wow, Grim Feast? you've made that card work?

I'd like to see that. I love .10 rares

 

[jorael]

true true.. wow, Grim Feast? you've made that card work?

I'd like to see that. I love .10 rares

First time I saw Limited play the card I thought I would cost a lot. I mean in multiplayer it's a very good card. Opponents will play with creatures, they will die, you will gain oodles of life.

Guess it's one of those hidden gems...

 

[Mikeymike]

Any room for Fire Ants?. They can lay down a bit of hurting with Repurcussion out.

Also, a creature sacrifice mechanism might be helpful to counteract Repurcussion - while simultaneously making your Gravepacts and "When this creature dies, and effect happens" creatures. Looking specifically at Goblin Bombardment.

 

[Limited]

First time I saw Limited play the card I thought I would cost a lot. I mean in multiplayer it's a very good card. Opponents will play with creatures, they will die, you will gain oodles of life.

I rarely played with it, till someone pointed out the errata; it's no longer 'target' opponent but all opponents.
It looks a very situational card, but MP there's always someone with a creature based deck..

 

[Force of Will Smith]

Fire Ants: it could work, but it will probably serve the same function as a single Bloodfire dwarf. Unless i give the ants flying, or make them a 2/2.


Grim Feast: As long as you have creatures dying on your opponents side. I guess it would just take a lot of removal in black or green. Its just that its continuing damage you can't really control.

 

[Limited]

Fire Ants deals 1 damage to each other creature without flying.
So still weak, but won't die of his own ability.

There's no way to make tokens/creatures which go to opponents graveyard (except for that trading djinn right?).. Still, when an opponent has no creatures, it means no blockers! Swing for the win! Except of course when he's got a Phantom Centaur with Unquestioned Authority out.. how do you kill that?

 

[Oversoul]

There's no way to make tokens/creatures which go to opponents graveyard (except for that trading djinn right?)..

Pheldagriff...

 

[Limited]

Pheldagriff...

Sorry. You might not control the tokens, but you own them so they go to your graveyard..

 

[Oversoul]

Oh, then I got mixed up. I know it's possible though, as I did it once with Relentless Pony...

Yeah, Mindslaver + Sliver Queen + Donate.