Grozoth

Discussion in 'Single Card Strategies' started by Oversoul, Jan 27, 2006.

  1. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    When I first saw this guy, I thought it would be cool to break him. I never got around to trying and now I'm not even sure what the best way to go about it would be. My first idea was dropping it with Sneak Attack and then using it to pull copies of Colossus of Sardia or something of that nature into my hand (to be dropped with Sneak Attack).

    A 9/9 wall that can attack if you pay 4 is nothing special. Grozoth will come in handy either by using transmute to dig for something else good or by filling your hand with other overcosted permanents when it comes into play.

    Thankfully, it doesn't have to actually be played from your hand in order for its ability to trigger. After all, it does cost a lot. Some of the things you can put into your hand with Grozoth include...

    Colossus of Sardia: I like this one for use with Sneak Attack because with Sneak Attack in play and Grozoth in your hand, you can pay RRRR to swing with 27 damage of pure trample.

    Teeka's Dragon: Not sure what you'd do with a few of these, but it is an option.

    Krosan Colossus: Not as good with Sneak Attack since it lacks trample, but it's a better alternative if you plan on keeping it out for a while.

    The Bringers: Any of them, or all of them for that matter.

    Various legendary creatures: Spirit of the Night is a particularly good one, but I don't know that any of them is actually worth using Grozoth.
  2. DarthFerret Evil Sith Weasel

    What about a Laviathan? (Blue creature from the dark set, reprinted in 4th and 5th). hmm....Nullstone Gargoyle?

    The Unspeakable
    Chromescale Drake (not trample, but still kinda nice)
    Reya Dawnbringer (She would be really great, cause she can get back any critter that you lose....even Grozoth itself....)
    Blazing Archon would be kinda nice too!
  3. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    He can get you Winds - Plague Wind, Blessed Wind...
  4. DarthFerret Evil Sith Weasel

    The Nasty:


    Creatures:

    4 Colossus of Sardia
    4 Grozoth
    4 Leviathan
    4 Blazing Archon
    1 Reya Dawnbringer
    1 The Unspeakable
    1 Chromescale Drake
    1 Crimson Hellkite

    Spells:

    4 Sneak Attack
    1 Plague Wind
    1 Denying Wind
    1 Blessed Wind
    1 Searing Wind
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Worldly Tutor
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Diabolic Tutor
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Moss Diamond
    1 Fire Diamond
    1 Sky Diamond
    1 Marble Diamond
    1 Charchol Diamond
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mox Diamond

    Land:

    4 Salt Marsh (B/U)
    4 Elfhame Palace (G/W)
    4 Shivan Oasis (G/R)
    4 Urborg Volcano (B/R)
    4 Coastal Tower (U/W)

    20 Creatures, 20 Spells, 20 Lands


    I am sure this can be improved upon, but it should be a good starting ground for you.

    Got the Tutors in there to go get either/or the Grozoth and Reya Dawnbringer. Use a Sneak Attack to get Grozoth into play, draw a lot of critters, including Reya. (hopefully you have the mana with the lotus petal, the mox/diamonds, and the dual lands) Summon Reya, then end your turn and discard most of what you drew (down to 7). Use Reya each turn to bring one into play from the graveyard. Only weakness I can see right off of the bat is the deck speed will be a little slow, but may work good in multi-player...may also need a little mana acceleration.

    Please feel free to improve on this....
  5. DarthFerret Evil Sith Weasel

    oops....scratch the leviathans, add something like spirit of the night or some mana acceleration critters there instead
  6. sageridder Legendary Cpa Member

    I think you have to go down to 2 or 3 colors.Blood moon is a fairly common sideboard card now.I'm thinking a G/W/R build might help, it just feels thined out to much.With the manabases now avalible I wouldn't be surprised to see sowing salt, and price of progress as sideboard favorites soon.How is Colossus of Sardia
    that good you still have to pay to untap it, at the least U has to go.Maybe R/G/B might be better you doing nothing early into even midgame.I wonder if it might be a better sub theme, rather than main focus.It's not a bad idea but i just don't think it holds up as a main focus for the deck.Take this all with a grain of salt I don't prepose to be that good, it all just seems to be to dependent on drawing those cards and if it dosn't it looks like it just says your turn go to many times.
  7. Limited Yes, but we won't care

    I've been wanting to do something with Grozoth for some time now, but its hard to find a good use for it..

    I came up with this:
    Card: Why I want to try it
    Dimir House Guard, Drift of Phantasms: Early defense and tutors for cards like Vigor Mortis and Dimir Doppelganger
    Sakura-Tribe Scout: Seems like a really good card with the 'Karoo' lands
    Pentad Prism: Mana acceleration & Colorfixing.. and it might bring out a turn three Bringer
    Myojin of Life's Web: With a lot of mana accel, it will give you a way to put all your Bringers into play. At least he is a 8/8.
    Sakashima the Impostor: When you have a animated Myojin in play, you can play her and copy it. The impostor will have a Divinty counter, so you can dump your hand into play.

    Obviously, the deck is too thick.. what should I drop?
  8. LanternX New Member

    I also wanted to build something around Grozoth when the card came out. I set him aside long ago with the extra Bringers I had around. Finally built the deck last night.

    60 cards
    24 land
    36 non land

    1 Ancient Tomb
    4 Stalking Stones
    10 Islands
    9 Mountains

    4 Grozoth
    1 Bringer of the Blue Dawn
    4 Bringer of the Red Dawn
    1 The Unspeakable
    1 Furnace Dragon
    1 Colossus of Sardia
    1 Denying Wind

    1 Dream Halls
    4 Pyromancy
    1 Quicksilver Amulet
    1 Belbe's Portal
    2 Echoing Truth
    4 Izzet Signets
    4 Desparate Rituals
    4 Seething Songs
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Lotus Petal

    Unfortunately I only had 1 Blue Bringer sitting around and nothing like Sneak Attack so I had to defaults to the Dream Halls, 4 Pyromancy, Quicksilver Amulet, and Belbe's Portal I had sitting around.

    I'd like to get a few more red 9 cc creatures to take out 1 Seething Song, 1 Desperate Ritual, and the Colossus of Sardia. Suggestions?

    Thanks
    Jon
  9. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    According to mtgnews.com, the only other 9cc red creatures (besides the Bringer and the Furnace Dragon) are Crimson Hellkite (Mirage, 6th, 7th), Fire Dragon (Portal), and Zodiac Dragon (Portal 3 Kingdoms).

    Speaking of Grozoth, it seems weird that he just randomly has Defender. What exactly was the point of that?

    (- Steve -)
  10. evan d New Member

    defender to make him more fun

    this is the only acceptable answer
  11. Barachem Physicist Christian

    Yay for Grozoth!

    I've got this build which works quite well in multiplayer games:

    Grozoth Giveth

    24 Land:
    4x Forbidden Orchard
    4x Glimmervoid
    3x Ancient Den
    4x Seat of the Synod
    3x Vault of Whispers
    3x Great Furnace
    3x Tree of Tales

    20 Help Spells:
    2x Dimir Signet
    2x Izzet Signet
    2x Selesnya Signet
    1x Gruul Signet
    1x Orzhov Signet
    4x Darksteel Ingot
    4x Fist of Suns
    4x Etched Oracle

    18 9 Cost Spells:
    4x Grozoth
    4x Bringer of the Black Dawn
    2x Bringer of the Red Dawn
    2x Bringer of the Blue Dawn
    1x Myojin of Life's Web
    1x Blazing Archon
    1x Reya Dawnbringer
    1x Nullstone Gargoyle
    2x Plague Wind

    It's just a Grozoth deck with ginormous amounts of acceleration, cost reducing, draw-acceleration and tutoring.
    Only thing limiting the effectiveness of this deck is the lack of creatures in the first few turns.

    DarthFerret: Nice, but as you say, the mana acceleration is a bit lacking.
    Also the use of Sneak Attack is tricky, if it gets nuked, you're in a lot of trouble.
    Maybe putting in the Myojin of Life's Web might solve some problems if you haven't got enough mana to churn out creature after creature in one turn and it's a plus that the creatures you put into play with her are not sacrifice fodder, even if they don't have haste, but you'll have to devise a way to play her, which is tricky.

    Limited: You've got some nice ideas in there, why not try running Gifts Ungiven in your completed build to fetch any parts needed to get the combo going.
    But your biggest problem is the lack of lasting mana-acceleration and the problem of playing or dumping and then reanimating the Myojin of Life's Web, not to say how you'll also get Sakashima the Impostor into your hand too.
    And the common Rav duals also clog your mana-flow like tar.

    LanternX: Well, this looks like a promising deck.
    The Quicksilver Amulet and the Belbe's Portal are like the Fist of Suns in my deck, but in this deck the Quicksilver Amulet is superior to the Belbe's Portal, because it churns out any creature in your hand, not just a type you choose.
    I'd add 3 more and chuck out the Belbe's Portal.
    You want to take out the Colossus of Sardia, i'd say add the Furnace Dragon and The Unspeakable to the chuck it out list and put in 3 more blue Bringers.
    You're using Signets?
    Get 4 more for blue and 4 more for red and chuck out the Seething Songs and the Desperate Rituals, you need lasting mana-acceleration, not just temporary kind.
    Try getting rid of the Ancient Tomb and the 4 Stalking Stones(they are handy in some sense, stupid me) and put in some more Mountains and Islands or if you can afford it 4 Shivan Reefs or maybe even 4 Steam Vents(lol, that i even suggest this) or in the case you're swimming in money 4 Volcanic Islands. :p

    Anyway, nice thread.
  12. Limited Yes, but we won't care

    Gifts Ungiven is good but a bit pricey.. besides, what am I going to get? Four Bringers? I opted for the Budget way a choose Compulsive Research, which lets me dump fatties into the Graveyard while finding reanimation spells. I was contemplating adding Ideas Unbound ..

    Perhaps lasting mana-acceleration is preferable to the Pentad Prisms, but the idea of a turn three Bringer is just too aluring :rolleyes:

    And the Common Rav Duals really shine in a deck like this; I'll probably find enough land in the first four turns, so I won't need the play them. Later on, the make sure the deck can reach 9 mana more easily, by providing more mana with the same amount of land cards.

    Moreover, the deck has a lot of three-drops (including the transmuters) which would mean I could probably use turn four to play another three-drop and then play a Karoo. The lack in tempo would then be negligible..

    Oh well..
  13. Barachem Physicist Christian

    Ok, Gifts may not be best here and compulsive research helps putting fatties into your graveyard, helping the reanimator spells.

    A turn 3 Bringer with Pentad Prism is alluring, but you need 3 land producing 3 different colors of mana at turn three, consistently, that's a tad difficult, especially if you play a 5 Color Green deck with only 4 three cost land-searchers.

    Ok, you have quite some defenses to stall your enemy while you accumulate resources and dump fatties in the graveyard to reanimate them.
    You have enough Bringers, that's good.
    You have enough reanimation also good, but you need more spells to dump your fatties in the graveyard.
    Also hardcasting any fatty is in the late game, except for multiplayer games and games against other casual decks you'll be a bit too slow to achive that.
    Hardcasting or reanimating Grozoth doesn't affect it's come into play effect, but the Myojin has problems with its divinity counter unless you play it and while Sakashima is good to compensate this for a reanimated Myojin, your chances of pulling this off aren't really bad or great either, just meh.

    The Ravnica Karoos will help a teenie little with mana-acceleration and color-fixing, but honestly, they don't do jack more.

    One more problem to adress, decksize.
    While it's casual, it does seem that your deck's gonna be about at least 80 cards big: 50 spells and at least 30 lands.
    That isn't a problem in itself, but it does decrease the consistency of your deck dramatically, making it quite more difficult to get what you need.
    Try cutting down to a 60 - 64 card deck with at least 23 - 25 land in it.
    Cut the most down on creatures, especially the high mana cost ones, they're clogging the deck up, because of the limited mana-acceleration.
    I hope the advice will help you.
  14. Limited Yes, but we won't care

    You're totally right. The idea is cute, but it's never going to work.

    I figured 4x Compulsive Research and the fact that you can transmute Grozoth would be enough

    Well, I play multiplayer almost exclusively so that should explain some of my card choices :) But your deck is also meant for MP right? Why shouldn't mine be?

    You're right on this one. Its a fun trick, but it isn't worth playing Sakashima for..

    They don't accelerate your mana, you actually lose tempo when you play them. I'm just saying that a deck with 24 lands and no Karoos can never produce more than 24 mana (when every land has been played). When playing eight Karoo's, you might lose tempo in a couple of turns, but eventually you will be able to more mana with an equal amount of cards. So it is card-advantage: you don't miss a land drop without spending a card on it.

    That why I asked for suggestions on what to cut.

    This is how its looking so far:

  15. Barachem Physicist Christian

    Unlikely is the better word, it'll work from time to time, but it's completely unreliable.

    Transmute Grozoth?
    What a daft idea, i'd never thought of it.
    But in your deck it's a good way to fuel your reanimation.

    I was just asking.
    Yes, my Grozoth deck is for multiplayer, but it's also reasonably good in 1 vs. 1.

    Again, the unlikely scenario pops up, this time with a bit less likelyness.

    But still it's a long way from about 4 - 5 mana to the 9 mana needed for the Myojin or Nullstone Gargoyle.

    A problem is the Sakura-Tribe Scout, you want to drop him a.s.a.p., but your deck has only 6 green sources for turn 1 and 4 additional green sources for turn 3.
    In the case of the Kodama's Reach this doesn't matter that much, but the Scout needs early green mana, especially because you want to drop as much land as possible to accelerate faster.
    Cut the Karoos and put in more green, about 12 green sources should suffice.
    And 6 black and 6 blue sources should also be ok.
    But if you can manage, get some painlands, they sting a bit, but they help smooth your colors in a great way.
    Another problem is that you can't cast the Bringers until you have the mana for them or you can reanimate them.
    With just 6 reanimation spells for 11 targets you'll have great problems getting everything you need on the table.

    As it stands now, your deck lacks the consistency, mana-curve and acceleration to be of great impact in a multiplayer game, but i'm not doubting it'll be fun trying to survive to bring out a Grozoth and that Myojin.
    There are changes i'd suggest, but it'd change your deck substantially and i don't think you'd like the changes and i definetely don't think you'd apply them.
    I'm talking from my experience here, because other people on other forums tried improving my Grozoth deck by going to more basic lands(not a bad choice by the way, but it does make the color consistency somewhat worse) and removing and adding stuff that i didn't like.
    In the end i just changed some stuff that needed changing and i have this deck for several weeks now.

    So it's up to you if you want to hear my changes(don't worry, i'll try to respect your core ideas).
  16. Limited Yes, but we won't care

    Well, now I'm curious as to what suggestions you would make while respecting the core ideas..

    I've played the Sakura-Tribe Scout / Karoo combo in two different decks now and it gives you an enormous mana boost.. but those decks were mostly Green. For this deck, I need to choose between a possible turn one Scout or a turn three Grozoth Transmute..

    And the deck is supposed te be about Grozoth..
    (And I'll bring back Dimir Doppelganger :) )

  17. Barachem Physicist Christian

    Looks better now.

    But two questions, how do you intend to win?
    What is your gameplan?

    As for the suggestions, i'll see to them in due time.
  18. Limited Yes, but we won't care

    Turn one and two are just mana development
    Turn three is either defense: Stinkweed Imp or Drift of Phantasms
    or to get fatties into the graveyard with Transmute or Compulsive Research
    Turn animation, or getting animation.
    Turn five, either Beatdown commences with either a Bringer or Grozoth (consuming all my mana). Mostly, the big creature will ensure nobody can attack me so I'll have time to take advantage of the extra cards of the Bringers or extra threat posed by Grozoth.

    (Nullstone Gargoyle is just in there for laughs, but might prove very annoying)

    Dimir Doppelganger is just a late game options, when you can play it and make it 9/9 or 5/5 immediately.

    Mostly, I think its waiting behind a large defense for an abundance of fat or a creature with evasion (Dimir House Guard, or pinged to death by a Stinkweed Imp)

    Sounds like a plan?
  19. Barachem Physicist Christian

    Ah, now i understand.
    But still, i find it a bit too defensive.

    Ok, i'm ready!
    I'm getting you budget options here, so here we go.

    Let's work on a budget reanimator list:
    - Apprentice Necromancer [A rare, but a budget one, works reasonably well with Grozoth]
    - Zombify
    - Breath of Life
    - False Defeat
    - Victimize
    - Hell's Caretaker [A rare, less budget, but might work wonders with Grozoth]
    - Yore-Tiller Nephilim [A rare, budget one, needs a multicolor deck to exist in or needs dumping and reanimation]
    - Animate Dead
    - Hymn of Rebirth
    - Exhume
    - Beacon of Unrest [A rare, quite budget, quite versatile]

    Now we can go two ways, keep it all U/B or go back to 5 Colors.

    Let's tackle U/B.
    It's quite difficult keeping the bringers in, but i'll try my best.
    Adhering to your original list:
    Creatures (22)
    2x Bringer of Black Dawn
    2x Bringer of Blue Dawn
    4x Dimir Doppelganger
    4x Dimir House Guard
    4x Drift of Phantasms
    4x Grozoth
    2x Nullstone Gargoyle
    3x Stinkweed Imp
    Spells (14)
    4x Compulsive Research
    4x Dimir Signet
    2x Victimize
    4x Zombify
    Lands (24)
    4x Dimir Aquaduct
    10x Island
    10x Swamp

    Meaning that you can have your deck intact and maybe change one or two cards if you want.

    The 5 Color solution is more radical and a bit more aggressive:
    Now we move to 5 Color Green.

    24 Land:
    12x Forest
    3x Plains
    4x Island
    3x Swamp
    2x Mountain

    38 Spells:
    4x Sakura-Tribe Elder [Yeah, a bit difficult to get and quite pricey for a common, but it's good, real yummy good]
    4x Kodama's Reach or Civic Wayfinder [Whatever you find better]
    2x Bringer of the Black Dawn
    2x Bringer of the Blue Dawn
    2x Bringer of the Green Dawn
    4x Drift of Phantasms
    4x Grozoth
    1x Nullstone Gargoyle
    1x Blazing Archon
    4x Compulsive Research
    3x Zombify
    3x Breath of Life
    4x Etched Oracle [Great creature, not good as reanimate target, but good as a small fatty and card-draw when it dies, you'll love it]

    I know, there's less transmutability, but you can't have everything in the world.

    See what you like best.
  20. Limited Yes, but we won't care

    I already have a 5cc Green deck, which doesn't feature Grozoth but just Bringers and Invasion dragons.. so I know it'll work. (and yes, Etched Oracle is superb)

    For your first suggestion, but I don't think Victimize is right for this deck. First of all, it doesn't hold a lot a creatures I would like to sacrifice and secondly it returns two creatures; early game or later on due to the Doppelganger, I might not have this.

    Thanks though for reminding me of Beacon of Unrest. Seems like an excellent inclusion. Doesn't combo with the Doppelganger, so perhaps I should rethink those.

    You said it'd be difficult to keep the Bringers in; what would you replace them with?

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