Freedom of Stupidity

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HOUTS

Guest
They have nothing left to say when they are clearly wrong. And, I don't take time to make sure everything is nicely put down on this site. IF I haver errors, then it is because I don't care.
Imagine that...

-HOUTS-
 
R

rokapoke

Guest
Jigglypuff said:
If you're so knowledgable, HOUTS, what is the truth then?

HOUTS said:
They have nothing left to say when they are clearly wrong.
Does anybody else see the implied message here? This was, after all, HOUTS' first response to the question posed by Jigglypuff.

HOUTS, you denounce us all for our ignorance. I don't think I'm the only one who finds that to be ironic. You, after all, are the one who said

HOUTS said:
You attacked WOTC=Pro Tour.
This is obvious. You should learn how companies work
If Wizards of the Coast exists purely for the Pro Tour, how is it that the Pro Tour did not come into existence right at the beginning? When the NHL went on strike, did the rest of the world stop playing hockey? No, because people understood that what the pros were doing DID NOT AFFECT THEM.

I consider myself a casual player. I would like to read Magic articles that present cards and/or combos that you won't see on the Pro Tour. Why? The three or so decks that dominate the tour at any time aren't any fun to play -- it's no fun to look across that kitchen table from either end of a turn four kill. I prefer my plodding style of deck construction. Ask Eric -- the first time I run any deck against him, I get slaughtered. And I wouldn't have it any other way.

I've voiced my opinion. On the topic of opinions and voicing them, I give you this: "Opinion: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof." -- Dictionary.com, first definition. The only thing you need to express an opinion is freedom of speech, and unless a few laws have been changed in the last 200+ years, I'm pretty sure we've got that covered.


Dave
 

turgy22

Nothing Special
I'd like to say attacking Houts on the merit of his typos seems a little absurd.
Sefro or Notepad or Sean or whatever you prefer to be called on the boards: I did not attack Houts on the merit of his typos. Perhaps I'm a little slow, but I don't see any typos in that particular statement. (Oops, I just realized he forget the verb... I a little slow.) I actually thought it was a great quote. People should reread things that have already been made very clear. I had made it very clear earlier that I was not attacking the Pro Tour, but Houts continued to criticize me for doing so.

They have nothing left to say when they are clearly wrong.
I think this is another great quote. Since this discussion began, half a dozen people have chimed in with legitimate points, new observations and more analysis. All the while, one person keeps saying the same thing over and over again and doesn't refute or add to anything else that's being brought to the table.

Dave: You brought up a couple points that I think are worth exploring.
1) How long was it after the release of Magic that the Pro Tour began? To the best of my knowledge, the DCI was created in 1993 and the first PT took place early in 1996. That's pretty early in Magic's history, but Wizards was still in the business of selling cards first and hosting tournaments second. Now some people say that organized play is directly responsible for increasing sales, but again to the best of my knowledge, the hottest selling sets were the first sets to come out up until Fallen Empires, where Wizards made the mistake of over-printing and under-powering cards. This implies to me that the game sells itself and the competition doesn't sell the game.
2) In regard to the hockey comparison, I think that you make a good point, but I also think sports analogies might be part of the problem in why so many people think the Pro Tour is so important. A lot of Magic players are starting to look at Magic as a sport instead of a game. I think in sports, the professional leagues are very important. Can you imagine the decline in popularity in baseball, football, basketball or hockey if MLB, the NFL, NBA, and NHL permanently ended? Sure, people would still play, but the leagues took all the best athletes in the world, combined with the best coaching to produce the most enjoyable game-viewing experience. People like me, who enjoy watching sports, but have no discernable athletic talent, would no longer care. The PT for Magic doesn't have nearly the impact that the professional sports leagues have on their respective sports. It's more comparable to organized chess. Sure, I'm vaguely aware that there are people who compete in organized chess, but if the whole thing stopped tomorrow, it would not effect me or my enjoyment of the game in the least.

The only thing you need to express an opinion is freedom of speech, and unless a few laws have been changed in the last 200+ years, I'm pretty sure we've got that covered.
True that. Anyone else want to sound off?
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
I generally agree with you turgy22, but a couple of things:

but again to the best of my knowledge, the hottest selling sets were the first sets to come out up until Fallen Empires, where Wizards made the mistake of over-printing and under-powering cards
I think the reason why the early sets were the "hottest selling" sets was because Magic was still growing and their was a shortage of cards for those interested. As you can see from your second statement, Fallen Empires more than met that demand and then some :) I daresay that if its print run was the same as the early sets, despite its power level, it would have "sold well" too.

Can you imagine the decline in popularity in baseball, football, basketball or hockey if MLB, the NFL, NBA, and NHL permanently ended?
Not sure about hockey or baseball, but football and basketball would still have a great fan base for the college level. So not sure if you can really make it stretch for those two.
 
L

Larcen26

Guest
Spiderman said:
Not sure about hockey or baseball, but football and basketball would still have a great fan base for the college level. So not sure if you can really make it stretch for those two.
This is true, and odds are that the viewership/interest in the college level athletics would probably double if their professional counterparts were removed. But this may only be at first. Without the promise of going on to professional careers in the sport, I think some of the dedication of the players may falter, and therefore, the quality of the game. And that would, in turn, reduce the interest. (Imagine having the highest peak of your career end when you were a senior in college.) Therefore, the sport would falter as a result.

Now, I can see some getting ready to leap at the percieved parallel between my above statement and the Magic Pro Tour. But yet again I am right on Turgy's wavelength on the difference between a game and a sport. The best parallel I have heard about the Magic Pro Tour is this...Scrabble has a Pro Tour too...Does that mean that we should care about it when we pull out the board for game night?
 

Mooseman

Isengar Tussle
Larcen26 said:
Now, I can see some getting ready to leap at the percieved parallel between my above statement and the Magic Pro Tour. But yet again I am right on Turgy's wavelength on the difference between a game and a sport. The best parallel I have heard about the Magic Pro Tour is this...Scrabble has a Pro Tour too...Does that mean that we should care about it when we pull out the board for game night?
I agree with the problems in the sports analogy, but there is also a problem with the chess/scrabble analogy too. Niether of these games produce new versions of the game.
Would MTG continue to be a widely purchased commodity if there were no more sets printed, just reprints of the cards? When was the last time that you purchased another Scrabble game or chess set? Certainly not as much as MTG.
Now, to weigh in with another angle: Organized play.
If the PT was to "go away", would there still be organized play? I believe so. There are still pre-releases, JSS's, GP's, States, Regionals..... These events are a big part of the organized play pie.

So, should the casual player care about the PT? Only if they want to.
Were the Pro Player cards geared toward the casual player? Not at all.
Were they stupid? I think so and the more vocal players at the events I work at seem to think so too.

Funny story, well funny to me. At the last PTQ I ran, there were some players who had delveloped a game with the PP cards. It seems that there is one pro player who's claim to fame is winning 1 grand prix. They shuffle together as many PP cards as they have and then deal them out to each player one at a time and whoever gets the aforementioned card loses.......
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Larcen26 said:
Without the promise of going on to professional careers in the sport, I think some of the dedication of the players may falter, and therefore, the quality of the game. And that would, in turn, reduce the interest. (Imagine having the highest peak of your career end when you were a senior in college.) Therefore, the sport would falter as a result.
Well, it's all speculation of course, but I would tend to disagree. I think the NCAA championships for basketball and whatever the "Super Bowl" is for football (I get all their bowls mixed up) would still be the pinnacle for those players. I mean, not every player on those teams go on to play in professional sports anyways, so right now, for some of them, it IS the pinnacle. Just more emphasis would be placed on them if the pro level went away.
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
I've made it to a few Pro Tours, and I've won money at a few GPs - I don't consider myself either a pro or semi-pro player.

My best friend, Neil, has made it to around a dozen Pro Tours (I've lost count), Top-8ed at a few GPs, and been a European Championship and World Championship attendee 6 or 7 times at least. Neither he nor I consider him to be a pro or semi-pro player, although he is actively considering dropping his job and giving it a shot. The pro in Pro Tour and Pro Player means Professional, meaning what you do for a living. Neil makes a bit of money from Magic - it's a nice little added extra that just occasionally pays for the travel costs of attending all the events in the first place. But for all his efforts and successes I'd say Neil on the whole doesn't do much more than break even at Magic - and most of that comes from canny card trading/sales.

To be a Pro Player you make Top32 at a PT, follow it with a GP Top-8, then a PT Top-16, and another GP Top-8. THEN you're a pro player, and you don't get that consistently high level of results without practising absolutely every hour you possibly can, every day. I think at any given Pro Tour there's probably no more than 20-30% of the field who have put the work into it that they're going to walk away with the prize (without being stupendously lucky). The other 70-80% are just making up the numbers, whether they believe it themselves or not - and trust me at any Pro Tour there's a whole bunch of players walking round with smiles on their faces for a solid 3 days because they're glad to have just got there.

Back to the original question, I don't see why Casual players even discuss the Pro Tour as it doesnt really affect them. It's curious that they choose to pay so much attention to what other people are doing, and so little to what they are doing. I don't think Pro Tour players complained about the amount of money spent on Unhinged and Unglued.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
It could be just the handful of casual players here... :)

So like any pro level (and to use the NFL since I'm most familiar with that), you have the top tier players, like the "best known names" in Magic or the "superstar" and/or quarterback on an NFL team, you have the second tier which is the guys who "make money" off the Magic tour but aren't as well known outside of the Pro Tour circles, similiar to the rest of the starters on an NFL team but the average joe doesn't know their names (usually most of the offensive and defensive line :) ), and then the rest of the guys who play in itbut don't make money and/or aren't as well known, similiar to the 40+ rest of the NFL team who usually sits on the bench until a starter gets hurt.

Which makes sense.... :)
 

turgy22

Nothing Special
Wow. I like how this thread is spinning in about 10 different directions right now. I have a few more thoughts to add:

Mooseman: You say the Scrabble/chess analogies are bogus because Magic is an evolving game, while those are essentially static in nature. This implies to me that you think the importance of organized play lies in its ability to flesh out the best decks in each new format quickly. I agree that it serves this purpose, but I also think that's a bad thing since it can stifle creativity once the top decks are already realized. Also a note on the Scrabble PT: It continues to be televised by ESPN, meaning there is enough interest there to generate television sponsorship and endorsements. If I recall, Magic once tested the waters at ESPN and although everyone within WotC says it was a success, I can't help thinking that not enough people were watching to profit ESPN. As long as the Scrabble PT maintains sponsorship through television deals, it is making money for Parker Bros or Milton Bradley or whoever produces the game. On the other hand, the Magic Pro Tour is sponsored solely by WotC, who also produce the game and therefore are probably losing money to promote and run it.

Gizmo: Thanks a lot for your insight. I'm learning a lot about the PT from you and I'm glad that you're actually willing to provide information about it. I have a question though: When you or your friend qualify for the PT, are there any fees you need to pay for entering, travel, etc? Anything outside of buying cards for a deck and food. So even if you're out of prize contention, do you still get a paid vacation to go play Magic?
As far as your question of why casual players have so much interest in the PT: I think it stems from the way Wizards markets the PT. Most casual players get the feeling that WotC is not happy with them just playing casually and wants them to compete for the PT.
I don't think the Unglued/Unhinged thing really works for this argument. Although both of those sets were clearly targetting casual players, it's up to the players to go out and buy them. Unhinged cards weren't being thrown into tournament packs as a way to sell the set to more competitive players. I don't know any PT players, so I can't say they were complaining about those sets, but I know there's some degree of feeling that those sets were a waste of resources. If you disagree, try building a deck that prominently features some Un- cards and then play it against a more competitive player and see what they say. Even if the game is just for fun, you'll probably hear some complaints.

Spidey: Without getting too off-topic, I thought I'd answer a few questions that arose in your responses.
1) NCAA football doesn't have a "Super Bowl" per se. They have a championship game that rotates between one of four bowls: Fiesta, Rose, Sugar, and Orange. The bowls in college are named after the stadium they are played in, unlike the SB, which basically goes to the highest bidder. (Detroit??? Ugh.) The selection of teams for each of the four major bowl games is pretty complicated and I don't feel like getting into that after having to explain to my wife and mother-in-law why Penn State was playing in the Orange Bowl this past year. All you need to really know is that outside of the championship game, every other bowl is set up to make the most money for the people running them.
2) There's no way 40+ guys on an NFL team are warming the bench. Each team as a 53-man roster with 22 starters on offense and defense, plenty of other guys rotating in for specific plays and formations and a bunch more guys dedicated to playing special teams (punt coverage and such.) In the average game in which no players are injured, there will usually be 2 full-time bench-warmers: the backup and third string quarterback. By some weird NFL rule, 3rd-string QBs aren't allowed to play unless the first two get injured and generally, head coaches won't play the backup for fear of injury. Also, if the offense is REALLY good, the punter might go the whole game without playing, but lately punters have been used much more often as holders on field goals and extra points.
I'm not sure anyone cares about any of that, but for some reason I felt the need to clarify. Also, everyone on an NFL roster makes a minimum of $300,000+ per year. Compare this to Kai Budde's lifetime winnings. Again, I think this goes back to the fact that Magic is a game, not a spectator sport.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
turgy22: I don't follow college football too closely, but they always try to match up the #1 and #2 teams in one certain bowl, correct? Of course, determining those teams is a complicated process that everyone loves to oink about, but I don't think it's one year, the top two seeds play in the Rose Bowl and the next year, they play in the Fiesta Bowl, etc. Is it?

About the NFL - I guess some guys could come in for specific plays but by and large, I believe you pretty much have the same core guys on every play. But it still corresponds to a guy making the occasional top 8 in Magic. And yeah, they make 300,000+ a year now, but how long did it take to get to that point? Pretty much 13+ years ago when free agency kicked in. You look back in the 50's, 60's, 70's and see that the players pretty much made diddy-squat, even for those on championship teams.

Point is, pro football has many years behind it and vastly matured compared to Magic (not sure if you were making the same point or not).
 

turgy22

Nothing Special
they always try to match up the #1 and #2 teams in one certain bowl, correct?
Nope. It's a four-year rotation. At least it has been since the inception of the BCS. This year, USC and Texas played in the Rose Bowl. Next year, the top two teams play in the Fiesta Bowl. Last year, it was either the Orange Bowl or the Sugar Bowl.

Back to the NFL: Yeah, the same core of guys is going to be in most plays. I was just trying to say that almost everyone is going to get in the game at some point. Special teams plays account for 10-20% of snaps in a football game and that's where all the backups get in.

I'm not exactly sure what point I was trying to make. I was basically just typing whatever popped into my head.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Huh. I wonder if that would change if the pro level was abolished... if it would go back to one bowl being the championship bowl of the top 2 teams. Of course, the whole ranking system would probably change too...
 

Mooseman

Isengar Tussle
turgy22 said:
Mooseman: You say the Scrabble/chess analogies are bogus because Magic is an evolving game, while those are essentially static in nature. This implies to me that you think the importance of organized play lies in its ability to flesh out the best decks in each new format quickly. I agree that it serves this purpose, but I also think that's a bad thing since it can stifle creativity once the top decks are already realized.
Sorry, but you missed my point entirely..... When was the last time they printed a new letter tile for scrabble? When was the last time they printed a new magic card? See the difference?
While there may be some interest in organized play for scrabble and chess, I don't think it drives there sales. Organized play for magic does drive their sales.
Remember, organized play isn't always contructed formats.
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
turgy22 said:
Gizmo: Thanks a lot for your insight. I'm learning a lot about the PT from you and I'm glad that you're actually willing to provide information about it. I have a question though: When you or your friend qualify for the PT, are there any fees you need to pay for entering, travel, etc? Anything outside of buying cards for a deck and food. So even if you're out of prize contention, do you still get a paid vacation to go play Magic?
It varies a little by country. In the UK originally the system was flights were paid for but nothing else - players had to fork out for hotels, food, everything else. As players complained that WotC were booking super-cheap flights and not really rewarding players for their success that was changed to a £500 prize out of which players would be able to book their own flights/hotels etc - this however led to many players making the final, agreeing a result do that one player took the slot in the PT and one took the majority of the cash and was free to attend other PTQs. I liked this system because I wasnt interested in attending PTs but was interested in cash - this paid for my first iPod for instance. Now the system has gone back to the flight being paid for, as too few players were actually attending the Pro Tour. Attending Pro Tours can be VERY expensive - it cost me about $500 to go to Pro Tour Rome, when you factored in travel to and from airports, hotels, food....

Last time I checked the World and European Championships have a cash prize on qualification but no arrangements for travel or accomodation. Usually if you win a Worlds slot you'll need to find money over and above what you won at Nationals in order to attend. Remember also that cash allocation depends on players in that nation so the UK is doing pretty well for prize money - the Lithuanian National Champion had better be bloody rich if he wants to go to Worlds.

As far as your question of why casual players have so much interest in the PT: I think it stems from the way Wizards markets the PT. Most casual players get the feeling that WotC is not happy with them just playing casually and wants them to compete for the PT.
I don't think thats true - I think they'd like to promote the Pro Tour as something that is achievable if you want it. I don't see at any point any message WotC has communicated that says "we dont like casual players". All they say is "hey, look where you can be if you take it seriously and maybe spend a bit more cash". It's a proposition that you can accept or decline, but it's nothing more than that. And I'm sure that WotC gains from promoting tournament play in terms of product sold. It also loses some of that in product given away in support of tournament events from FNM to Pro Tours.

I don't think the Unglued/Unhinged thing really works for this argument. Although both of those sets were clearly targetting casual players, it's up to the players to go out and buy them. Unhinged cards weren't being thrown into tournament packs as a way to sell the set to more competitive players. I don't know any PT players, so I can't say they were complaining about those sets, but I know there's some degree of feeling that those sets were a waste of resources. If you disagree, try building a deck that prominently features some Un- cards and then play it against a more competitive player and see what they say. Even if the game is just for fun, you'll probably hear some complaints.
The PT Player cards were meant to be a celebration of Magic - of "hey, look how cool it is you can be great at this dumb game about Goblins and Elves and win loads of cash - from a game! Isnt it neat that you're a part of this game?". I think you're misinterpreting them as some sort of subliminal mind control device. Pr Tour players won't want to play against Unglied and Unhunged because they're **** cards that are about as funny as cancer. Hey look, I get to shout OW! really ****ing loudly ALL THE ****ING TIME ISNT THIS GREAT! WOOOH!! It's like turning Magic into Jerry ****ing Springer. OW OW OW WO WOW OWOPW WOWMWOMWOWOWOWMOWow THIS IS SO MUCH FUN I CAN JUST SHOUT ALL THE TIME ISNT IT GREAT WOW.

Makes me want to put the big black **** of death into his mouth and pull the trigger and spray his brains over the wall. SAY 'OW' NOW YOU ****ER!!!

Sorry. I hate that card. So much. It made it impossible to go into a Magic shop for about two months after Unhinged came out because fat ****ing retards would just love shouting OWOWOWOWOWO! at each other when you're trying to have a conversation on a table ten metres away and still cant hear each other.

Ooh lets do the Hokey Pokey! No, I've got a better idea ... let's not.

PT players dont want to PLAY against those cards, but I dont think they begrudge their very existence. I think some players just like complaining about WotC, and they'll pick up on anything that isnt 'for them' and complain about it regardless of whether it has value to other people or not. And maybe by definition sites like this are overly-populated by those sort of people.
 

turgy22

Nothing Special
Thanks for the info. I have a couple points of contention, though.

1) I never said that WotC implied that they don't like casual players. But I do get the impression that they want all casual players to aspire for greater things - that they don't want any players to be just casual. I think this stems from the fact that most casual players have had the same decks since they started playing the game. They only buy new cards if they actually look enjoyable. If the cards aren't good, then they'll keep playing with the same old crap and be perfectly happy with it until something better comes along. On the other hand, competitive players have to continuously buy new cards to keep up with whatever format any particular event happens to be. Standard, block constructed and extended are constantly shifting as new cards are released and if you don't play competitively, you probably don't care. I think this also goes along the same vein of why so many Vintage enthusiasts feel spurned by WotC.

2) I absolutely disagree that the Pro Player Cards were meant to be a celebration of Magic. They're a marketing ploy and there's nothing subliminal about them. Mark Rosewater himself said they're a marketing ploy. From his back issues article: "They're replacing marketing. I mean, they are marketing." My biggest beef with the PPCs isn't their existence - it's the fact that they are marketing but they are awful marketing.
Apparently, Aaron Forsythe wanted to make player cards like baseball cards. There's nothing wrong with that. I think they would have gone over well as a bonus in the player rewards program or something like that. People who follow the competitive side and actually are fans of the pros would have something they enjoy and would want to get them autographed and all that other business and they might have been worth something. But instead of being printed in limited quantities and given out to people who would appreciate them, they were turned into marketing and given to EVERYONE. On the other side of things, marketing was needed and WotC didn't want to spend the money in their marketing budget on more magazine ads. Fine. They could have printed up insert pamphlets for tournament packs and precons instead. Or advertise it on the already existing sheet that goes over the new mechanics and such. Or make up posters or on the back of the boxes or on the packs. But instead, WotC decided to advertise by using PPCs. And I think most people looked at them and said, "This guy makes money playing Magic? I hate him," instead of the intended, "This guy makes money playing Magic? I can be like him."
Granted, I don't think the PPCs were a blunder that caused anyone to quit playing the game, but I still think they were a blunder that could have been handled better in any number of ways.

3) Wow. It sounds like you were really scarred by Unglued. Sorry to bring up such a sensitive subject.

I think some players just like complaining about WotC, and they'll pick up on anything that isnt 'for them' and complain about it regardless of whether it has value to other people or not. And maybe by definition sites like this are overly-populated by those sort of people.
Absolutely. As I've started reading and now writing about Magic more in the past couple years, I also get a little bit saddened at how far away I am from the player I once was. Especially writing, if I need something to write about, I only need to find something I don't like and complain about it. Boom. Material. On the other hand, most Magic players probably don't give a damn about anything that we spend so much time debating.
Opened a pack with a bad rare? I had no idea.
A set was poorly designed? I'll just wait for the next one.
Did Rosewater say something stupid? Who's he?
I can't say that I miss those days, but I still marvel at how much has changed.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
I think this stems from the fact that most casual players have had the same decks since they started playing the game. They only buy new cards if they actually look enjoyable. If the cards aren't good, then they'll keep playing with the same old crap and be perfectly happy with it until something better comes along.
I disagree with this (mostly with the word "most"). Some casual players can have the same decks, some casual players buy new sets as they come out and build new decks, there are some who buy new sets, update old decks, build new decks, whatever.

Pretty much the distinction I make here is that a casual player is someone not paying to enter a tournament and even then, that line gets blurred (as in they might do it once in a while or for a pre-release, but not enter every single tournament or whatever).
 

turgy22

Nothing Special
Spiderman said:
I disagree with this (mostly with the word "most"). Some casual players can have the same decks, some casual players buy new sets as they come out and build new decks, there are some who buy new sets, update old decks, build new decks, whatever.

Pretty much the distinction I make here is that a casual player is someone not paying to enter a tournament and even then, that line gets blurred (as in they might do it once in a while or for a pre-release, but not enter every single tournament or whatever).
I wasn't trying to imply that casual players never buy new cards, simply that they are not forced to buy new cards as they are released. I still think that most casual players have at least one deck that they built when they started playing. Sure, that deck's probably been tweaked and revised and had new cards added and old ones taken out, but it's essentially the same. Casual players don't need to bend their tastes to match formats and compete with legal cards. They build what they like and play with what they like.

I have about twenty constructed decks right now. Four of them have been around since Mirage block, but that doesn't mean I don't still update them if better card choices come around. The other 16 came about either because I had an idea using old cards or because I was inspired by a new card or because I wanted to explore a block mechanic. I didn't need to create new decks to keep up with changing formats - I did it because I was inspired by the design of the cards.

The point is that when old sets rotate out, casual players don't get rid of decks containing cards from those sets just because they're no longer "legal" by a tournament definition. They play with what they like, whether it's new or old. On the other hand, if you're entering tournaments, you need to keep up with the latest decks or at least have the latest cards for any Standard or Block Constructed tournament.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Gotcha. I still dislike the overall generalization because it implies you have some "inside" knowledge of what most casual players do or how they behave, but I get the idea. :)
 
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