First Strike under 666e rules

B

Baron Sengir

Guest
Maybe someone can explain this to me:

The other day, Child of Gaea and I were playing Magic (duh) and I was going to phase out my Rainbow Efreet that blocked his white knight.

My question is this: How does the stack affect first strike? Would a creature that has been removed from play still damage a creature with first strike if the first striker would have dealt lethal damage? Let me know what you think.

I remain
The Baron
Waylay was like a loose thread on a nice sweater. Pull the thread and the whole shirt starts to unravel.
 

Ferret

Moderator
Staff member
I think it depends on when you phased out the efreet. I think if you phased it out before damage is assigned, neither critter takes damage and both stick around. If you phased it out as a response to the First strike damage, the phasing would go on the stack (gods, I hate saying that) on top of the damage, so it would go - Efreet phases out, damage resolves, Efreet isn't there to take damage, so the Efreet lives to fight another day.

-ferret

"...at least, that's how I think it works - maybe we can email Randy Buehler about this..."
 
B

Baron Sengir

Guest
But does the White Knight die?!?

I remain
The Baron
Shel Silverstein's evil twin
 

TomB

Administrator
Staff member
Good Question.

According to the new rules, shouldn't it?

Would the first strike damage matter?

If it was instead a Phyrexian Whatsis (you know, the one that sacs for -3,-3) in combat with the White Knight (and the pro black Sleighted to something else, of course), and if the damage was put on the stack and the Whatsis was sacced to take out something else, would the White Knight live simply because it has First Strike? Would it die because it's damage with First Strike wouldn't have been sufficient to take out the Whatsis? Even though it's no longer in play?

What if someone used a Spike Feeder to put a counter onto another Spike Feeder assigned to block the White Knight, then sacced all 3 counters to gain the life? Would the Knight then die, or would it live simply because it has First Strike?

Inquiring minds want to know.

TomB
CPA Member
"I do not teach. I simply reveal."
-Daudi, Femeref tutor
 
Z

Zadok001

Guest
Slight mistake I need to point out:

First Strike damage is put on the stack and then resolved, THEN all other damage is put on the stack. It doesn't matter when the Effreet phases out, it cannot both return to hand and kill the Knight.

--Nivelimac, aka Greater Good fanatic
 
Z

Zadok001

Guest
Sorry, Nivelimac is the name I use on MtgNews, and I'm still in a mindset for posting there. I'm still Zadok001.

--Zadok001, aka Greater Good fanatic
 
T

theorgg

Guest
when combat damage is assigned, there are two effects stacked up if a first striker is present. First strike is stacked. it must resolve before the regular damage is put on the stack.
 
B

Baron Sengir

Guest
So ... basically the White Knight wouldn't take any damage if it could have killed the Rainbow Efreet, even though it isn't there to be killed?
 
B

Baron Sengir

Guest
Thanks for clearing this up for me. I figured the White Knight wouldn't die but wasn't sure how it worked.

I remain
The Baron
Mayor of North Park
 

TomB

Administrator
Staff member
The stack gives me a headache. Was this presented in the initial release of 666E rules, or was this an add-on?

TomB
CPA Member
"If a person with multiple personalities threatens suicide, is it considered a hostage situation?"
 
Z

Zadok001

Guest
It's actually not too far from what was presented way back when in the days before 6th rules. Pre-6th, you had a Damage Prevention phase after first strike damage, but prior to regular damage. With the removal of the Damage Prevention phase, it makes some semblance of sense (!) to have a step for fast effects after first strike damage.

Really, the only difference in this case is what can be played. Now you can use any fast effect, before you could only use damage prevention. And since "damage prevention" was never adequetely defined (is untapping a Giant Tortise to give it +0/+3 damage prevention?), this really makes more sense to me.

Anyway, just a simple clarification. Don't shoot the messenger.

--Zadok001, aka Greater Good fanatic
CPA Member
"We have more sprouts than they have hands."
 

TomB

Administrator
Staff member
No, no, don't misunderstand Zadok001. I very much appreciate your clarification, and I have to admit I never really thought of the ruling as a replacement of the damage prevention phase. I was under the impression, though, that the First Strike ruling was handled a lot like Waylay, in that it was only dealt with after the fact. Had WotC announced 666e rules with this included, and I understood that, the idea could be judged on it's own merits, but if it was handled as an add-on I have a problem with it because of the poorly thought out way they went about it.

See, for a rules set that was supposed to make this game easier to understand and teach to people I feel that 666e rules are a failure. There's more errata than ever, and more confused people - including veterans of the game like myself - than there should be. I know whole legions of people (well, maybe a dozen) who've decided to ignore the new rules altogether in a league I'm sometimes involved with, and I'm sure that they're not the only ones.

I guess I just hate seeing what this is doing to the game is all. I went to a store tournament in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin this Saturday and wasn't all that surprised to see it canceled because only 3 people showed up. True, the tourney wasn't hugely advertised or anything, but it's a weekly thing, and used to get quite a few regulars. Just last summer I attended a tourney there with 15 players, on a much nicer day than it was on Saturday.

I don't know why this is the case, but I'll admit it's got me worried. Maybe I'm wrong for blaming the rules changes, or the card sets, or all the bannings and errata. Or the cost involved with keeping up. Maybe it's just that the game's popularity has already peaked, and now we're on the downward slide. I don't know.

I just know that WotC'd better do something fast, or this game we love will be but a memory.

TomB
CPA Member
"I do not teach. I simply reveal."
-Daudi, Femeref tutor
 
B

Baron Sengir

Guest
The whole 666e rules change is fast becoming a disaster. This kind of thing is why we as an organization exist. We need to get up and running asap. Then maybe we can do something about it.

I remain
The Baron
Experiencing a bad case of the simian grunts
 
Top