Discussion in 'CPA/WOTC Magic Issues' started by yawnmoth, Nov 11, 2000.

  1. yawnmoth New Member

    It seems to me that most tournie players seem to play with more casual players a little to competativly. They play to have fun through winning, whereas casual players play to have fun through having fun. Maybee the CPA could try to reintroduce the fun concept to tournie players who play with casual ones?
    I mean, it is definitly no fun to play agianst a two turn kill deck with a sliver theme deck...
  2. Neil Rigby New Member

    I was just wondering how you would describe fun?
    You say that casual players attempt to have fun by having fun, but from what I have seen of casual players where I am from this either involves playing with an untuned deck, or trying to win in a novelty way, like creating a trillion squirrel tokens and presumably your sliver theme deck has say 'sliver queen' in it that you find fun to win with, or you enjoy getting as many different slivers out as possible. I agree that playing against a turn two kill deck is not fun, no matter what deck you are playing.
    Neither of the above are a problem to play against (I am a tournament player who plays against casuals every Wednesday) but just because they are different doesn't neccessarily make them fun to play against. An example of which happened to me recently when a friend wanted to play his 'fun' squirrel deck. So I played one of his (I only had tournament decks with me) other 'fun' decks, which turned out to be a poor stompy, I played a forest and an elf, he laid a forest and an elf, I played a 2nd forest then a Caller of the Hunt (elves), he plays forest quirion elf, from then on I just attacked for 11 turns, not playing anything else as to let his 'fun' squirrel deck play out a bit, but he didn't see any of the cards he really needed so just died. Not really much fun yet we were both using alledged fun decks.
    Now I didn't play to competatively and i'm not having a go at you at all, I mearley wished to point out that fun is a very subjective thing and having fun by having fun is still not neccessarily fun for your opponent, if his squirrel deck had worked I would just have been beaten up by lots of 1/1's. It my point of view that even for casual players it is the winning that is fun but they try and do it with none tournament decks or in a novel way.
    Not meaning to sound unreasonable or like i'm having a go but this is just my point of view, please reply to this if you have ANYTHING to say, I would be interested in what everyone else thinks!
  3. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    I think a fun deck is one that encourages interaction and has novel cards in it that have synergy that dioes not directly destroy your opponent. I had a Butterfly deck (Giant Caterpiller/Enduring Renewal) which I thought was fun to play, but everybody else hated it because it was a complete crusher (endless 1/1 flyers and a recurring Sustaining Spirit can do that to you). I even tuned it down to the 3-3-3 format (3 copies of 3 cards, everything else highlander), and yet it was still a very unpopular deck. To recount another guy`s 'fun' deck - 50 Muscles Slivers and some Forests.
    Yeah, nice, good game.

    In my experience the most enjoyable games ARE tournament games where you and your opponent are equally matched and nobody knows who will win. Win or lose (so long as you can handle losing that is and your opponent isn`t being a rules-lawyering prat) the game is compelling to play and very enjoyable. Sligh vs Draw-Go can be fascinating.

    The definition of 'casual' decks is so broad that it encourages sitation where one person`s fun deck (Hermits and Wranglers) completely destroys somebody else`s fun deck (a Coalition Victory deck). Fun? No.
  4. Mars New Member

    .....only arises when you take one to a serious tournament and foolishly expect to win. You won't, but if you build, say, an ANTI-deck that takes down the top deck and an otherwise great player, you may beat him in the first round then get crushed thereafter. And he's pretty much out of it as well. Who wins? Nobody.

    Example: White Weenie in 1996 crushed Necro but lost to everything else. Ironically, Tom Changpeng won Worlds playing exactly that, but it stopped being FUN because he made an excellent metagame decision......if EVERYONE is playing Necro, I'll take my chances and play its ANTI-deck and see how I do. That wasn't FUN, it was risky, but it paid off.

    Another example: here's a good example of a mono-blue current T2 deck that takes out several of the major players, but loses to other top decks, and does so horribly? Would you take this to a tournament and seriously expect to win it? I hope not, unless your prayers to The God of Fortunate Pairings are answered.

    BLUE Ponza

    4 Overburden
    4 Tangle Wire
    4 Ankh of Mishra
    4 Parallax Tide

    3 Wash Out
    3 Seal of Removal
    4 Boomerang
    4 Waterfront Bouncer
    2 Viseling
    4 Chimeric Idol
    3 Sky Diamond

    4 Rishadan Port
    2 Saprazzan Skerry
    15 Island
  5. Hawaiian mage CPA symbiod

    "Playing for fun" is makeing a deck that but's an unstopale infinity lock up that makes the game a tie.

    Nothing better then tieing with a tourny player. Pisses 'em off sooooo much... :)
  6. arhar Member

    I agree with StarCity's Ferret on this issue. Tournaments are made for competitive Magic players. People that like to win. And casual players like to have fun. Not saying that casual players don't like to win, or tournament players don't like to have fun. I think when you're trying to find a casual game in the store, or on Apprentice, you should specify it, like "Does anyone want to play a fun game?". Once on Apprentice, some guy asked if anyone wanted to play T2, so I played him with my tournament deck that I was tuning, and he got all pissed off because he was plying a "fun" deck. Well, how did I know? But later we had some fun when I played my stupid Big Avatar deck against his 50 Sex Monkeys.dec. Every time he played a Sex Monkey, he said "I looooove Sex Monkeys, don't you?"
  7. Deadman New Member

    I never really thought of that before, but see that you're right.
    I mean, there is a difference between the people that make decks because they have wacky reults and funky themes, and the guy that makes decks mainly to win.
    I'm sorta between the two, I make wacky decks, but not so much to the point as they're not also designed to win.
    I can't help but make decks and gear them purely for victory, they usually have wacky stuff mixed in, but the main purpose is still a definite victory.
    Of course, I play for fun, but sometimes I have to stop and ask, is my opponent having fun?
    That's why I no longer play counter-decks, and am cutting down on land destruction as well.
    It's very important to make sure the game satsy fun, without that element, it's no longer a game.
  8. krichaiushii New Member

    Fun is what you make of it.

    Should I win, that's great. But if I get to play the new card that I threw into the deck because it looks cool, well, that's a victory too, even if I end up having my arse handed to me. Bad puns generated by certain cards are a key point, as well (those involving the Fire Elemental come to mind).

    For casual play, especially chaos, player interaction is what is fun. Watch the guy who gets mana-screwed next time. He is not having fun, so is either killed off quickly, or left to linger as he is seen as not being a threat. Victims of LD and/or mana screw know this feeling. Heavy counter/control players start off having fun, but realize they become the target of everyone's wrath, by countering everything worthwhile -- resulting in little enjoyment for anyone (until the control player is dead, at least).

    If you are kind and benevolent, you might take to playing party cards -- the assorted Oaths, the variants on Hunted Wumpus, and other artifacts and spells that affect everyone equally (except you, as you build your deck to take advantage of the party card, so you are more equally).

    But those off to tourneys, or practicing for them, are there to win. For good or bad, victory means ensuring your opponent does as little as possible (no fun for him). Just be kind enough to warn your potential opponents BEFORE playing them (except in tourneys, attendees should know that already).

    Solution? I avoid all tourneys but drafts -- plenty of interaction, as combos are nigh-impossible, and it nearly always devolves into a creature battle (though I did win once last night due to my opponent using Elfhame Sanctuary to draw himself out of cards...). Additionally, I try to get chaos games going constantly. Lots of fun for everyone.

    That might be a bit disjointed, but its how I define fun in Magic.
  9. yawnmoth New Member

    I was refering to something as fun when strategy goes into it. IMHO, if you design a good tournament deck, on your own, that can someone on the second turn, that may be fun, but if you copy a deck (which most tournie players I know do) then where is the fun? There was no strategy for them, in the design of the deck, and for the most part, the decks have one strategy which can also be copied by reading how to play the deck. Where's the fun? I'm using fun as a synonim for strategy.
  10. Neil Rigby New Member

    Just a comment on what people are saying:
    People often mention interaction when talking about fun play and tournament play. I would just like to point out that playing on apprentice and the like has far less interation that going to a tournament, where you will meet new people and have FUN. I go to tournaments regularly, not neccessarily to win (it's nice when i do) but mainly to meet people who I will not see in my everyday life, yet know I have something in common with. As strange as it may seem not all tournament players play killer death decks that must win by turn four with their opponents doing nothing, and as Gizmo mentioned some of the most fun games you can have are between two tuned tournament decks because they are equiped to play against each other, unlike most 'fun' decks where one deck is just plain better than the other. Again as Gizmo said I fail to see what is fun about a 50 sex monkeys deck, he gets to three forests and makes a monkey every turn, ooh fun!
    Multiplayer magic cannot really be compared to tournament magic as they have totally different deck types in them and anyone who plays a tournament deck in multiplayer is just asking for trouble. I am only moaning about multiplayer magic because my multiplayer deck is a pestilence deck which always gets picked on, because eveyone doesn't want me to get my pestilence out and kill their monsters (go figure).
    Anyway as usual these are just my thoughts and not personal attacks at anyone so lets all just chill and have 'FUN'

    I think i'm going to have to add that to my signature to save me typing it every time. :p
  11. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I pretty much agree with Gizmo; it's the interaction that will make the game fun, whether it's two untuned Starters or two tuned tourney decks that are well matched.

    To avoid confusion, if a "casual" player is playing a "tourney" player, it'd be best to specify what kind of decks are being played (the random one against an Oath deck). That way, misconceptions are cleared up before they play.
  12. Cateran Emperor Passed On

    My own personal fun deck goes a bit like this:

    4 Mogg Maniac
    4 Furnace of Rath
    4 Pariah
    4 Martyrdom
    4 Fireball
    4 Mana Flare
    and some other stuff...

    It's an idiotic deck, but it's funny just to watch your opponents's faces when you kil everyone with a one point Fireball bouncing around toward everyone but you in an infinite loop (I forget the exact combo, there are 2 or 3 other cards that make ti work) That's what I call fun. :D
  13. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    since I don't know exactly what your combo is, but in general this has come up in the Rules forum about Pariah and Martyrdom (I think) and usually there isn't an infinite loop; the replacement effects only happen once. (Rule 419.6a).

    Again, without specifics I'm not sure this applies but just in case...
  14. DÛke Memento Mori

    ..."fun" is any game that lasts more than 8 turns; otherwise, somethin' is goin' on.

    I don't like to sit down with my well designed, well thought of deck, only to face a stupid little 12 year old boy who copied an Academy Deck and who made his mommy by the cards for him. That's sucks, badly.

    Fun is when both players talk to each other, make jokes, and just be down to earth; other wise, you're probably sitting next to one of them "boys".

    Anyway, what's "fun" for me could be hell to another. It all depends on whom we're talking about.
  15. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    any game wheren I'm playing a sucessful lock deck, or at least a game where nobody else is....
  16. Nyx New Member

    My definition of a fun deck is one that is more likely to make an opponent confused than angry. One where you will come away feeling happy even if you lose.

    Like my multiplayer deck I called "who owns this card anyway?" which was full of things like Juxtapose, gauntlets of chaos, ghazban ogres, steal artifact, control magic, abduction, enchantment alteration, and so forth. That was clearly not a deck designed to win, it was intended to make people laugh.

    Now, before the 4-card limit I played with a deck full of mammoths, firebreathing, elves, and lightning bolts with as many Wheel of Fortune as I could get my hands on (3 at the time). This was not a fun deck, it was a brutal deck.

    What I've found is that if you play a deck like "who owns this card anyway" against some people, they will get pissed at you for wasting their time. These are the sort of people that I try to avoid playing more than once.
  17. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    Naked singularity in multiplayer. a card more hated than stasis.

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