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[rkoelsch]

**I fully support the Extended Rotation. I think it is a good idea. That being said I think that Type 1 or Type 1.5 needs to have a large sponsored tournament other than the Invitational . I don't think this should be on the Pro Tour or Grand Prix. But an event receiving similiar prize and advertising support like a Grand Prix. The players that have access to the older cards still enjoy playing with them and while this will not drastically increase new cards sales, there are new cards that would have an impact on this format. I appreciate your listening to me and I enjoy playing Magic. While I think that Wizards is doing an excellent job overall, I think a segment of the Magic popuation is being overlooked. Thanks for your time.



Richard Koelsch**

My intention is to have these formats recognized so I can actually use my older cards. I would prefer the 1.5 as I have none of the power 9 but I wouldn't mind either format. Without something like this my older cards are only good for 5 color. Not that that is bad but I like dueling.

 

[Gizmo]

DCI wont support large tournaments where dual lands are legal, simply because dual lands are in such scarce supply that those events are inherently unpopular and unbalanced.

Dual lands havent been printed for 6 years, Its only natural that you shouldnt be able to use them in common tournaments, just like you cant use Abyss or Moat.

 

[Spiderman]

So why not just ban or place the duals on a Restricted list? Why do all of the other cards of those sets have to suffer?

 

[PTQ]

Cards suffer?

 

[Spiderman]

Mine do. They've been cooped up in the darkness and in confining spaces for too long, gathering dust...

 

[rkoelsch]

Gizmo, do you really feel that those formats are that unpopular? There seems to be a fairly large segment that is unhappy about their rotation out of Extended. I thought the Grand Prix's were meant to allow more people to enjoy a large professionally run tournament but they seem to be extensions of the Pro Tour. I just think that Wizards needs to support all the cards that will give people a longer life in Magic.

 

[Gizmo]

Yes I do. The internet community is weighted towards longtime players over newcomers, particularly in those willing to write articles. Look around here... who here started playing last year?

Ask those players whether they are more likely to be competitive in an extended tournament after the rotation.

There is a vocal minority, but it IS a minority.

Grand Prix are basically semi-PTs. DCI will NOT support formats which are NOT FAIR on the vast majority of players. Extended was unfair. 1.5 is unfair. T1 is unfair.

Good riddance.

 

[Spiderman]

It seems a never-ending cycle then, 'cause there will always be newcomers (by that, I'm guessing people who are coming in during a Standard block, not people who are trading/selling to remain in Standard).

I wonder where all those people are who asked for Standard (or Type II, back then, during Ice Age). I guess they're already out by now or have traded/sold to remain Standard... or don't care about their old cards.

 

[BigBlue]

What it goes to show is that WotC could care less if you've played the game for 8+ years. Either buy the new cards, or continue to play without the benefit of reward (prize support). It makes sense from a business standpoint, but to some segments of the magic community, it forces them out. I never was interested in the Pro Tour blah blah blah, but now I'm not even interested in the smaller store tourneys anymore unless it is limited, I've no desire to buy boxes and boxes of cards to compete against punk kids who've no respect and will cheat at any opportunity. No, that is not the majority of what I see, but there are enough of them around that it makes for an uninteresting and frustrating experience, throw in the added expense and it just isn't worth it anymore.

I gave up caring about competitive magic years ago when I saw the trend. Now I'm happy with a box or less of cards from limited expansions to get new mechanics and enhance old decks with newer ideas. Apparently there are enough "newcomers" to support the WotC business model of ignoring it's original players. Of course that's the way of the world now anyways, longevity and seniority are not considered positve traits at many businesses. It is what have you done for me lately. I believe they call this a paradigm shift.

 

[Gizmo]

I think that this process is perfectly normal. If you`d bought a PC 8 years ago and refused to upgrade it, would you feel you deserve to be able to play AvP 2 online?

You either pay to stay current, or accept that you WILL be left behind.

Old sets will continue to rotate, older cards will continue to fall into disuse. This is a POSITIVE thing, as it makes it far easier for newcomers to compete. You have no idea how many dead MiViLite, Ice Age etc rares I have lying around that are going to become dead cards... this WILL impact the value of my collection, but it doesnt make me selfish enough to see the rotation as anything other than a step forwards.

 

[Spiderman]

I don't think your analogy quite fits as AvP2 uses requirements much greater than a PC from 8 years ago, whereas the only real change someone needs from 8 years ago is a rules refresher; deck-building and card mechanics (like sorceries only on your turn, etc) are the same.

It's more like creating a computer game that still uses SVGA graphics or something. THAT will still run on a computer 8 years ago (and to a point, old DOS games still run on computers today, though you probably need utilities to slow it down some).

So are you saying you don't miss using your MiViLite/Ice Age rares in decks? Do you ever build decks using non-Standard cards?

 

[BigBlue]

The only POSITIVE things to come out of this rotation is for the newcomer who can usually play around older cards and for WotC who sells that many more cards of the new stuff to older players who wish to remain competitive. I'm not proposing we go back to type 1, that only drives the cost of the power 9 higher, but leave extended to old school, newbies get to have standard, and old schoolers who wish to pay can play standard as well. But to make the game inaccessible to people unwilling to continue shelling out thousands to build net-decks isn't fair to the people who made the game what it is today. If not for us purchasing Ice Age, there'd be no Odyssey. Why punish us for making their success? WotC doesn't sanction Type 1 or 1.5, and so now many of the old cards are useless pieces of cardboard other than in casual play. They could have continued to print the good cards, is it my fault they refuse to reprint good old stuff? Should I be punished for making them what they are today simply because I refuse to purchase 4 boxes of every set anymore, or that their reprint policy prevents them from printing the best of the old cards? I could give a crap about the secondary market, and they are ridiculous to say on one hand they don't either while protecting that market by not printing their most powerful cards.

So they don't want to reprint Black Lotus, fine. Why make new alternative cost Counterspells and blame Force of Will for ruining Extended. Like Foil won't take its place. It's less efficient than Force, but in the scheme of things more useful than Counterspell at times. They aren't strengthening anything by rotating sets out, only punishing their oldest supporters.

Anyways, I really could care less, there is no real tournament support for anything in Montana. We get FNM, and a state championship once a year, but other than that it doesn't matter to me. I just think it isn't a good thing to insult the old schoolers still more by taking extended away from them. This is just going to shift the "Old" to a newer set anyways. it won't help the new player any more than it did in the past. the new "old" extended sets will increase in cost as they are considered the new power. Perhaps they could have created a "new" extended format and supported both for a while. I dunno. I'm likely the worst candidate to champion any format since I'm not the rabid WotC customer I once was.

 

[Spiderman]

Too bad WOTC can't get in the secondary market, like offering an exchange program of some type of old cards to new

 

[BigBlue]

Originally posted by Spiderman
Too bad WOTC can't get in the secondary market, like offering an exchange program of some type of old cards to new

Why "Couldn't" they?

This isn't anything I would expect or participate in necessarilly. Although a set of OD for a set of IA would be nice.

Bah, I've talked too much on a subject which raises my blood pressure for no real reason.

 

[Gizmo]

The difference is that for every active tournament player who bought Ice Age cards, there is something like 30 active tournament players who didnt.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

 

[Apollo]

DCI will NOT support formats which are NOT FAIR on the vast majority of players. Extended was unfair. 1.5 is unfair. T1 is unfair.

Isn't it unfair to me that all those cards that I shelled out money for are now worthless? I paid for them and now they won't let me play with them?

Your computer analogy doesn't work because, like Spidey said, the reason you can't play new games on old computers is that new computers are so much more powerful. Magic still uses the same mechanics it always did, so there's no reason I shouldn't be able to use my old cards.

 

[Chaos Turtle]

Your cards are worthless now?

I have old cards that I couldn't play in extended after the previous rotation (pre-Ice Age). I even have dual lands. And I for one am delighted with the rotation. Extended has long ago become stale and boring.

I am surprised that Mirage block got the axe (thank heavens Hammer of Bogardan was in 6th) and even more surpised that in the future, there will be a rotation of three blocks at a time every three years. But hey, I like change. And it's long past the time that extended needed a regular rotation schedule.

We have the Classic formats for dragging out the ancient cards, but don't exepect to see me at one of those tournaments; I got sick of looking at Ice Age cards ages ago.

 

[Spiderman]

Originally posted by BigBlue


Why "Couldn't" they?

This isn't anything I would expect or participate in necessarilly. Although a set of OD for a set of IA would be nice.

I thought that they couldn't enter a "secondary market" of wheeling and dealing for legalistic reasons, but now since they have their own stores, maybe it's okay.

I wouldn't expect a one-on-one trade though since these are cards that are now "worthless" vs cards you could use in tourneys.

I don't mind rotation. It's just that my impression was that Extended was specifically set up for those players who fell in between Standard and Type 1/1.5. Now that it's rotating onwards, there's once again a gap between 1/1.5 and Extended. That's all. There just seems to be a hole.