C'mon, you gotta admit that Demonic Tutor is one of the strongest cards in the game, even if it doesn't kill on its own. 2cc to get ANY card in your library?
I liked the alternate artwork as well but that it should also go up to uncommons (heck, why not rares too?) Not sure what the reasoning was to do just the commons; I mean, it can't have THAT much of an adverse affect on the market, can it?
I liked the alternate artwork as well but that it should also go up to uncommons (heck, why not rares too?) Not sure what the reasoning was to do just the commons; I mean, it can't have THAT much of an adverse affect on the market, can it?
Sure, Demonic Tutor was good, but there are other cards out there now that allow you to fetch cards at Instant speed from YOUR WHOLE COLLECTION and artifacts that let you dig through your library and the cards stick around after your done w/ it. Demonic Tutor was a Sorcery and it was restricted. It was pretty balanced at the time...
-Ferret
"Of course this was the time of Lightning Bolts and Ancestral Recall"
-Ferret
"Of course this was the time of Lightning Bolts and Ancestral Recall"
If you're talking about the Wishes, they're restricted also and are also removed from game. And their cc is a bit higher than Demonic Tutor (which probably evens them out).
But still, nothing is cheaper than Demonic Tutor for getting a card at no cost and having it stick around in the graveyard so you can recycle it via other cards.
But still, nothing is cheaper than Demonic Tutor for getting a card at no cost and having it stick around in the graveyard so you can recycle it via other cards.
Oversoul
The Tentacled One
Yes, Demonic Tutor is a very good card, but I don't think anyone believes that it isn't (Demonic Consultation and Vampiric Tutor are pretty powerful as well). Anyway, your last statement seems strange, since Demonic Tutor puts a card in your hand, and if being the graveyard is what you're after, then Entomb is a better choice...
Well, only one of the wishes is actually restricted anywhere, but I think you mean their potential is restricted and not the cards themselves. While none of them are cheaper versions of Ring of Ma'ruf, they are pretty heavy hitters. With the sole exception of Golden Wish, they have all demonstrated appreciable power. Death Wish and Burning Wish are devastating in combo decks (to fetch broken stuff like Yawgmoth's Will and also serve as utility) and Burning Wish is even restricted in Vintage for this reason. Cunning Wish and Living Wish both make great toolbox card when a suitable sideboard is created.
I meant Demonic Tutor goes to the graveyard instead of getting removed from game like the Wishes in response to Ferret's "... and the cards stick around after your done w/ it" which is what I understood his sentence to mean.
I don't think we're arguing it's bad by any means, this whole tangent appears to be in response to Ferret saying how they did reprints of great cards and all I was saying was you can't expect "Demonic Tutor" to come back in its original form since it was too good. I don't know if Vampiric Tutor is a worthy substitute but at least there's now a cost and stuff with it.
Only one Wish is restricted? Hmmm... of course, Golden Wish costs 5cc (I think), making it the most expensive. But I guess they got the cc right for the most part if only one is restricted.
I don't think we're arguing it's bad by any means, this whole tangent appears to be in response to Ferret saying how they did reprints of great cards and all I was saying was you can't expect "Demonic Tutor" to come back in its original form since it was too good. I don't know if Vampiric Tutor is a worthy substitute but at least there's now a cost and stuff with it.
Only one Wish is restricted? Hmmm... of course, Golden Wish costs 5cc (I think), making it the most expensive. But I guess they got the cc right for the most part if only one is restricted.
Oversoul
The Tentacled One
I don't know if that is a fair statement. I don't think a card being restricted in Vintage is necessarily the only usable evidence for it to be broken (I've heard a lot more complaints about Trinisphere, Skullclamp, and Crucible of Worlds than the restricted Chrome Mox).
Also, it might not be that Burning Wish is too cheaply costed, but rather that Yawgmoth's Will is too good (Burning Wish is left unbanned in Legacy, as its most dangerous targets are not available). Death Wish has its own deck and is used in largely the same role that Burning Wish was seeing before restriction. It costs an extra colored mana and half your life rounded up, but it still makes for a great deck.
With Cunning Wish, the drawback is usually said to be found in the fact that the sorceries in Vintage are outright better than the instants in terms of power--and not in the extra generic mana built into the cost.
And your statement implies that there is nothing wrong with the Wishes that have gone unrestricted. That is not a matter of certainty. We are talking about three cards which are quite good. It is possible that one or more of them has warped the game in a negative way (I do not advocate that such is the case, but it is a possibility).
I agree, but the future is hard to predict; of course cards are going to be released which may "break" an existing card (ala Illusions of Grandeur and Donate) or at the very least, propel them to top tier status. I certainly don't follow Vintage too closely.
But with all the Magic players out there and the length of time that the Wishes have been out there, I think it's fair to say that if they're not on the restricted list, they haven't been part of a "broken" deck (as in one that totally dominates the scene). Especially when you view all the hype they garnered before their release and the fears that they would break the scene
But with all the Magic players out there and the length of time that the Wishes have been out there, I think it's fair to say that if they're not on the restricted list, they haven't been part of a "broken" deck (as in one that totally dominates the scene). Especially when you view all the hype they garnered before their release and the fears that they would break the scene
Oversoul
The Tentacled One
A card doesn't have to be restricted to make its impact felt. Once again, I would use Trinisphere as an example. Four of the five have made a significant impact and one of those has even been restricted. I would say that constitutes "breaking the scene." If they had all ended up on the restricted list, that would have been quite an upset...Originally posted by Spiderman
But with all the Magic players out there and the length of time that the Wishes have been out there, I think it's fair to say that if they're not on the restricted list, they haven't been part of a "broken" deck (as in one that totally dominates the scene). Especially when you view all the hype they garnered before their release and the fears that they would break the scene
We're looking at the cards individually, not as a "set". Making a significant impact is not "breaking the scene". "Breaking the scene" is where a deck/card dominates so that for the most part, you're either playing it or playing against it. So far you haven't shown that is the case with the Wishes, whatever deck they may be in. If you remember the criteria for putting a card on the B/R list, then it is more likely or not the card has a much more significant impact than a card that is not on the list.
I say "more likely" because as the past recent announcements has shown, some cards lose their "effectiveness" due to sets and mechanics being released. Which all goes back to the "future" statements I made in the first part of my post above.
The cards you mention may be on the watch list, who knows. Which again leads to the future statement. All I'm saying is that right now, in the present time, the Wishes have made an impact but are not broken (people seem to fling this word around so much that it has lost its effectiveness; kind of like people using "diva" now pretty loosely).
It is pretty comforting that there hasn't been one card or deck that has been insanely dominant since Academy Decks dominated back in "Combo Winter". Unfortunately, if anyone is using a combo deck they could leave one of their kill cards in their sideboard and use Wishes to pull it. This allows the flexibility of not having to put four of the kill cards in their deck while still allowing the rest of the deck to deal w/ threats that your opponent may throw out.
Now, over on Magic Online, I see Wishes abused horribly. Many people build average or below average decks, but since they have a massive collection they can use wishes to grab the cards they need from their collection to win instead of taking the time to build an actually good deck...
-Ferret
"C'mon, top collection!"
Now, over on Magic Online, I see Wishes abused horribly. Many people build average or below average decks, but since they have a massive collection they can use wishes to grab the cards they need from their collection to win instead of taking the time to build an actually good deck...
-Ferret
"C'mon, top collection!"
J
jorael
Guest
Skullclamp?
Ok, they banned it in all formats except Vintage. If they hadn't the clamp would be in almost every deck.
Ok, they banned it in all formats except Vintage. If they hadn't the clamp would be in almost every deck.
Oversoul
The Tentacled One
Spidey, using the Vintage restricted list as your only criterion for whether a card is broken really limits things. People call Skullclamp broken all the time, but it has never been close to being restricted. But even if you did use such a system, one of the wishes IS restricted. So at least one of them was considered a major problem (actually, it was the ability to grab Yawgmoth's Will that was a a problem).
Making a significant impact is "breaking the scene" as far as I'm concerned. A card dominating the scene to the extent that you are either playing it or playing against it almost never happens (or happens all the time, depending on how you look at it). By your definition, Black Lotus is "breaking the scene" quite a bit in Vintage as you are almost certain to play it in any deck and your opponents will do the same. And dual lands are probably "breaking the scene" in Legacy. Islands "break the scene" all the time in some formats...
Anyway, I think it is entirely possible for a card to make a negative impact without being dominant. I am not saying that the wishes have done that, but they certainly have had some influence...
As far as Academy decks in Vintage, I wasn't playing Vintage Magic back then, but it seems that there was a serious lack of innovation going on. Academy is a broken card, one of the most powerful mana generating cards in the game, but even such a card doesn't compare to the exaggerated picture many players have of it...
Making a significant impact is "breaking the scene" as far as I'm concerned. A card dominating the scene to the extent that you are either playing it or playing against it almost never happens (or happens all the time, depending on how you look at it). By your definition, Black Lotus is "breaking the scene" quite a bit in Vintage as you are almost certain to play it in any deck and your opponents will do the same. And dual lands are probably "breaking the scene" in Legacy. Islands "break the scene" all the time in some formats...
Anyway, I think it is entirely possible for a card to make a negative impact without being dominant. I am not saying that the wishes have done that, but they certainly have had some influence...
As far as Academy decks in Vintage, I wasn't playing Vintage Magic back then, but it seems that there was a serious lack of innovation going on. Academy is a broken card, one of the most powerful mana generating cards in the game, but even such a card doesn't compare to the exaggerated picture many players have of it...
I remember reading a lot of tourney reports back then and 90% of them were about someone playing their Academy decks. Their decks reminded me of degenerate 15 year old's wet dreams:
Round 1 against some kid w/ a green deck:
game 1 - I go off on turn 3
game 2 - I go off on turn 4
the punk refuses to shake my hand
Round 2 against some kid w/ a red burn deck:
game 1 - I go off on turn 5 - I think he played a goblin or something
game 2 - mana screw. the kid gets lucky
game 3 - I go off on turn 4
Round 3 against some unoriginal punk w/ a deck just like mine
game 1 - he goes off just before I could
game 2 - I owns him on turn 4
game 3 - I go off on turn 5 - I'm in the Top 8!!!!!! It's all about my mad skillzzzz...
(about that point, I get bored and move onto another article). By the time the winter was over three different cards from the deck were either restricted or banned (Academy, Mind Over Matter, and Stroke (hee hee, stroke) of Genius). I actually watched someone playing one of those decks. Their turn took something like 15 minutes before they had their kill set up. The other guy looked like he was going to go crazy as his opponent kept saying "Hang on - I'm almost done. You'll be dead in a sec - HEY, where are you going?"
Disgusting.
-Ferret
"The deck took a little skill to play - but, not much..."
Round 1 against some kid w/ a green deck:
game 1 - I go off on turn 3
game 2 - I go off on turn 4
the punk refuses to shake my hand
Round 2 against some kid w/ a red burn deck:
game 1 - I go off on turn 5 - I think he played a goblin or something
game 2 - mana screw. the kid gets lucky
game 3 - I go off on turn 4
Round 3 against some unoriginal punk w/ a deck just like mine
game 1 - he goes off just before I could
game 2 - I owns him on turn 4
game 3 - I go off on turn 5 - I'm in the Top 8!!!!!! It's all about my mad skillzzzz...
(about that point, I get bored and move onto another article). By the time the winter was over three different cards from the deck were either restricted or banned (Academy, Mind Over Matter, and Stroke (hee hee, stroke) of Genius). I actually watched someone playing one of those decks. Their turn took something like 15 minutes before they had their kill set up. The other guy looked like he was going to go crazy as his opponent kept saying "Hang on - I'm almost done. You'll be dead in a sec - HEY, where are you going?"
Disgusting.
-Ferret
"The deck took a little skill to play - but, not much..."
N
NorrYtt
Guest
I don't buy the base set. I go to the Prereleases for the fun, and hopefully I'll open up nonjank like Lhurgoyf and Phyrexian Plaguelord. White bordered cards get stuffed into my common box and trade binders.
The Prereleases are fun, but not so much for a base set. Everything is just too watered down. The 'complicated' creatures are Samite Healer and Prodigal Sorceror. In an Expert Level expansion, Samite Healer might prevent more damage if you control something and he might untap if some event happens. This ripples through all the cards it just makes for a better game than Grey Ogre vs. Hill Giant.
Power level is one thing, but I'll cite Mercadian Masque's Spellshapers for Limited. Masques was quite underpowered, but Spellshapers gave you choices every turn and gave you a good use for excess lands.
The Prereleases are fun, but not so much for a base set. Everything is just too watered down. The 'complicated' creatures are Samite Healer and Prodigal Sorceror. In an Expert Level expansion, Samite Healer might prevent more damage if you control something and he might untap if some event happens. This ripples through all the cards it just makes for a better game than Grey Ogre vs. Hill Giant.
Power level is one thing, but I'll cite Mercadian Masque's Spellshapers for Limited. Masques was quite underpowered, but Spellshapers gave you choices every turn and gave you a good use for excess lands.
Oversoul: I'm not using the Vintage scene as the sole criteria. Cards are "broken" in their own block or environment, which is why there's separate lists. But it plays a big part. Think about it: it's the only format that allows every card. If a card has to be restricted in that kind of environment, it's gotta be pretty powerful. Each environment is different; when you take out certain cards, other cards rise to the fore. But that's not what we're talking about to begin with. We ARE talking about Vintage.
And just curious, but how do you know Skullclamp "has never been close to being restricted"? It's restricted in all the other environments....
Black Lotus definitely "breaks the scene"; that's why it's restricted. Not sure why you used that as an example... dual lands are definitely strong, that's why you see people always trying to get them and wish for them to come back instead of its variants But as an "engine" like Demonic Tutor and just a "mana-producer", it's a step below and not enough to be on the list. Which is why I don't use it solely as criteria and there's other stuff to be considered, like whether it's part of an engine or the kill card or whatever.
But again, think about WHY a card is on the restricted list in the first place.
And just curious, but how do you know Skullclamp "has never been close to being restricted"? It's restricted in all the other environments....
Perhaps it didn't in your area, but there are at least three times I can remember at least reading about: Necropotence, Donate/Illusions, and Academy. Yeah, that's only three example/four cards (that I can remember) in Vintage, but again, for the whole of Magic's card pool, that's pretty impressive.
Black Lotus definitely "breaks the scene"; that's why it's restricted. Not sure why you used that as an example... dual lands are definitely strong, that's why you see people always trying to get them and wish for them to come back instead of its variants
But as an "engine" like Demonic Tutor and just a "mana-producer", it's a step below and not enough to be on the list. Which is why I don't use it solely as criteria and there's other stuff to be considered, like whether it's part of an engine or the kill card or whatever.But again, think about WHY a card is on the restricted list in the first place.
D
Dragon Bloodthirsty
Guest
I bought some precons for trying to teach people, but the players didn't seem to enjoy them very much. I skipped the red one, but bought the rest....
you know, I bet I could afford alot of things if I took a break from Magic.
you know, I bet I could afford alot of things if I took a break from Magic.
Oversoul
The Tentacled One
I don't think it does at all. It's a staple and very potent mana acceleration. But it has always been there for one thing, and any deck can use it for another. That is precisely why I used it as an example (it is one of the most powerful cards in the game, certainly, but it is a staple rather than a card that could potentially be breaking any scenes).
As for your other points...
I agree that there is more to this than Vintage. And there are some important things about this. Firstly, cards that are not considered to be broken in Vintage can be broken elsewhere (much along the lines of what Ferret was talking about with the wishes). Also, cards that are powerful in Vintage are not necessarily as amazing in other formats. While we're still talking about wishes, Burning Wish is restricted in Vintage because of its power (as I've already stated) but it has never been banned in any other formats as far as I know. A card that is broken in one format might be totally substandard in another.
The same goes for Skullclamp (which is banned in other formats, not restricted). I know (well, I have a reasonable degree of certainty) that Skullclamp has never come close to restriction because I follow Vintage somewhat. It has been used in Vintage Affinity decks, but those decks were never a problem for the format.
Necropotence was indeed too good in Vintage, but notice that I said, "...to the extent that you are either playing it or playing against it..." I don't think this was quite the case back then. Now, if Necro were unrestricted in today's environment, it would be, but Necro seems to have a pretty stable position on the restricted list.
Donate/Illusions? Those cards are still perfectly legal and no one even touches them. The only time that they were good was with the aformentioned Necro...
And Academy was indeed such a case. I don't really know why the restrictions against that deck were not made earlier. But I don't believe that one time in the 10 or so years of "Type I" Magic contradicts my statement (three times wouldn't be so huge either).
I am not clear on the meaning of your last sentence, as we aren't arguing the criteria for restrictions or which cards should be restricted (unless I've given the impression that I think some particular card should be restricted/unrestricted, which was not my intent).
Those reasons are exactly why Black Lotus breaks the scene. It's not a game breaker in itself, but it's such a potent mana accelerator that it "breaks" designs of other cards because anything costing 3cc basically costs 0 and can be cast on the first turn. It's why Dark Ritual was eventually restricted. It's part of the engine. Just think if four of each Loti was allowed to run rampant in decks...
Believe me, I was there in the summer of '95 and followed the tourney scene more closely (after all, it was easier with just a couple years of Magic ) They don't call it the Black Summer for nothing. Since my memory's hazy, I'll say 90% of decks were either Necro or against (usually the original Sligh, since it was designed as a matchup against Necro). The number is probably higher, about 95%, but I can't say for certainty.
My last sentence was meant to mean that a card is usually restricted because it dominates the scene, either by itself or as part of an engine, usually to the point where all decks include it no matter what (more in the case of the engine part). When that happens, it usually means the card is so strong that it "breaks the scene".
Again, the point is that out of the thousands of unique Magic cards, only a handful are on the restricted list. In a format that allows all cards, this usually means they have had some meaningful impact on the scene, as opposed to cards that are not on the list (and I'm not privy to their watch list so not sure what cards are borderline).
Believe me, I was there in the summer of '95 and followed the tourney scene more closely (after all, it was easier with just a couple years of Magic
) They don't call it the Black Summer for nothing. Since my memory's hazy, I'll say 90% of decks were either Necro or against (usually the original Sligh, since it was designed as a matchup against Necro). The number is probably higher, about 95%, but I can't say for certainty.My last sentence was meant to mean that a card is usually restricted because it dominates the scene, either by itself or as part of an engine, usually to the point where all decks include it no matter what (more in the case of the engine part). When that happens, it usually means the card is so strong that it "breaks the scene".
Again, the point is that out of the thousands of unique Magic cards, only a handful are on the restricted list. In a format that allows all cards, this usually means they have had some meaningful impact on the scene, as opposed to cards that are not on the list (and I'm not privy to their watch list so not sure what cards are borderline).