Do You Use Internet Resources For Your Decks?

[Killer Joe]

Answer this questions in two ways:
1.) Honestly. Without defending yourself.
2.) As YOU percieve the question.

YJ:
1.) Yes.
2.) I DO use "Net-Decks" for both casual/tournament play. I DO research information when building my own decks. I DO read alot of articles about technique/game play/startagy/humor/metagame environment and a plethora of other stuff.

A whole other debate would be:
"Do you think it's right for people to use Internet Resources for their Decks?"

That's NOT what this thread is about, though.

 

[TomB]

I mean, are you trying to sound like a lawyer here?

YJ: "Your Honor, please instruct the witness to answer yes or no only."
Judge: "The witness will answer only yes or no."
YJ: "Did you, TomB, on the night in question, or on any other night, use an Internet resource to construct a Magic deck?"
TomB: "Ummm, well, yes, but..."
YJ: "Yes or no only TomB."
TomB: "Alright, yes then."
YJ: "Fine. And how do you perceive the question?"
TomB: "Ummm, how can I answer that question yes or no?"
YJ: "Don't be a wise guy. You can speak to the question freely, but do not deviate from the question only, as it pertains to you, in regard to your use of the Internet in constructing Magic decks, and make sure when you answer that you do not touch on the whole morality of the idea of playing with other people's ideas on deck construction thereby limiting what you can think up for yourselves. Instead, what we need to know here is exactly how you perceive the question of 'Do you use Internet resources for your decks?'"
TomB: "You mean you want me to decipher what the thought process was that prompted the question?"
YJ: "Well, no, not exactly..."
TomB: "Oh good, because I'd rather not go off on YJ about how he's obviously feeling a little guilty about going exclusively with Net Decks in his "Road to Tourneyland" series, and so he's decided to include all of us in his trip to the "Dark Side" of Magic, by implication, if necessary..."
YJ: "Right. That's not what we wanted to hear..."

But that is what's going on here...

YJ, I'm sorry man. I think you already knew how I felt about this, but in case you forgot I'm one of the ones who thinks you should be building your own decks. Sure, the Internet is an invaluable tool in terms of being aware of what to expect out there, but, to me, all you're doing by playing a Net deck competitively is giving the competition a chance to use the sideboard they prepared just for people (decks) like you.

Wouldn't you rather surprise them? Wouldn't you rather create a deck, then get the satisfation of seeing people all over the Internet scrambling around to try and figure out just how they're going to stop it? Wouldn't it be a thrill to see the pros out there playing with your creation?

I would think it would be, but I doubt you'll see the point. It's all right though, because I think there's room for everyone here, and for all kinds of opinions on the subject. More than anything, I think that's what ticked me off in the Voting Topics thread about this - I had thought we had already decided there was room enough for both schools of thought to exist here - but you got a bit personal in your implication that anyone not, what, sophisticated enough?, to use Net decks is a Neanderthal who should "crawl back under their slimey rock and evolve some more".

Sorry, but I thought that was uncalled for, and I still think it was inappropriate. I haven't put you down for using Net decks - and I expect you to extend me (and people like me) the same courtesy when we choose not to use them.

Mutual respect is the foundation this site is built upon. Deal with it.

 

[Spiderman]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Time out here.

When I first saw YJ's question on Internet resources, I did and still do DO NOT solely think of Net decks. I don't know how many other people are thinking that way (it looks like you guys are on each side), but like YJ says, you can put up the poll just to see how other people interpret the question.

I also think TomB misread what YJ was saying about "crawling under a rock". What he said was that "anyone who thinks LESS of a person using a Net deck should crawl under a rock and evolve", not that anyone who isn't using a Net deck should crawl under a rock and evolve. To that effect, YJ seems to be espousing what TomB just said, that there is room for different schools of thought and one side shouldn't be putting down the other.

So I don't think YJ has done ANY insulting or has done anyone any discourtesies.

Back to the poll idea, why not put up YJ's poll, then break it out into further polls like:

Do you use Net Decks in tournaments?
Do you use Apprentice to playtest your decks?
Do you check the web for articles on Magic play?

Stuff like that.

 

[Gizmo]

OF COURSE you use internet resources.

When you drive to work do you do it an a car you built and designed yourself?
When you write a memo, do you do it with a block of charcoal tied to a stick you found in the woods?
When you run a race do you wear shoes you made yourself?
Did you make all your own clothes?
How long did it take you to work out how to make a TV after you saw one round at your friend`s house?
Did you never read a book and in fact taught yourself everything you ever knew?

Ignoring the wealth of information and experience on the internet is a noble purpose. But it`s also really dumb.
It`s tantamount to being one of those idiot guys who try to sail across the pacific in a wicker boat because they think the Samoans managed it eight hundred years ago, or somebody who is trying to climb Everest in their gym socks.

Noble? Possibly.
Challenging? Certainly.
Dumb? Uh-huh.

 

[rkoelsch]

My answer is yes. And I could see how someone would take this to mean copying net decks so I will explain my answer. I am currently working on 3 decks. The first is a deck I copier from an article at star city. This is probably the closest to a net deck. I read the article and looked at the deck and it goes with my play style. Now I am trying to adjust it because some cards I don't like But the main deck will be as I found it. The second deck is a collabrative experience from this site. It started as an idea by one of our most prolific deck builders Griffith-se but with others help I developed it into a deck. This is what I think YJ is getting at not strictly copying a deck but interacting and bouncing ideas off of other deckbuilders. The third deck is a type 1 WW deck. This deck came about because they changed the format for my wednesday night magic. I was unfamiliar with the format or what is being currently played and I wanted a deck to take to make a decent showing. Maybe after a while playing type 1 I will get more creative but that is in the future. Well this is way longer than usual. I should really get back to work.

 

[Hetemti]

Yep

Every now and then I'll get a burr up my butt that chants "Make a prison deck!" or something like that.

So I log on, look at a deck list, see that despide the thousands of dollars I've spent and hours of trading I've done, that I've none of the cards needed. Because I've lots of cards...but none are worth anything because they aren't THE cards...nomatter the intended deck...

Then I log off and curse the day I started "playing" this accursed "game."

 

[Zadok001]

Yups. I tend heavily towards deck based on internet sources, but I like to "spin" the data in several ways.

First of all, I'll only play a deck if it is NOT a signifigant part of the current metagame (i.e., if everyone is talking about it, I won't play it).

Second, I like to take a look at history and build forward. Carpe Noctem is a good example of this - I use articles from the bygone ages of UBC to build a Type 2 deck. Decks that have long been out of circulation, etc...

I also use internet resources to fine-tune my decks. That means playtesting in Apprentice. I use a Fires playtest dummy that's about as up-to-date as you can get easily online, several dummy decks from recent major events, and basically decks from well-known deckbuilders as my playtest opponents. That's an internet resource.

I agree with Gizmo in a lot of this - If you're on the CPA, chances are you use internet resources in at least one way.

 

[Killer Joe]

Then allow me to apologize again, it was not my intention to piss-you-off TomB. I am sorry if I did.
And, YES, I am kinda on a mission here. I resent anyone who thinks less of not only myself but anyone who chooses to use the internet for their decks, whether it be direct coping of a deck, or sideboard technology or gameplay startagy or whatever the like of it is.
I DO make my own decks, "Erratic-Spikes" is my signature deck (Yes, it's a *PILE*, but it's still my own creation and I didn't even USE the internet to create it, although it probably would've helped ).
<back to the courtroom>
YJ: "Judge, The defense rests it's case."

 

[Killer Joe]

8x Yes
2x No
2x I can neither confirm nor deny any such allegations



BTW, I can't believe you threw that MBC tourney report in my face like that, Now THAT, was uncalled for.

Now let's make nice and shake, brother .

 

[Istanbul]

Depends very much on what you mean.

Do I use Internet Resources to make my decks? Of course.
Do I use decks I find on the Internet? No.

There's a difference between using the net to help make your deck, and using a net deck. One involves your ability to be creative. The other involves your ability to copy a deck and buy cards.

 

[TomB]

Originally posted by Istanbul
Depends very much on what you mean.

Do I use Internet Resources to make my decks? Of course.
Do I use decks I find on the Internet? No.

There's a difference between using the net to help make your deck, and using a net deck. One involves your ability to be creative. The other involves your ability to copy a deck and buy cards.

Istanbul got it exactly right. I believe there's a fundamental difference here between one and the other, and I believe that difference makes all the difference in the world.

And that's why I believe that the poll, as you want it written YJ, would be extremely deceptive in it's result.


Now, to answer some of the other points brought up here...

Spidey: I didn't really misread anything. The line read:

but you got a bit personal in your implication that anyone not, what, sophisticated enough?, to use Net decks is a Neanderthal who should "crawl back under their slimey rock and evolve some more".

It was my impression that YJ was implying what I said - at least, that's how I took it. If that wasn't the case, then I apologize for misinterpreting what the man wrote.

And, as far as it goes Spidey, your original point about how YJ's question in it's original state didn't make you think solely of Net decks is sort of the point I was trying to make - there are lots of ways people use the Internet for all things Magic, from decklists to discussion groups, from Apprentice to BB's like this one...to get rumors about upcoming sets, and to purchase cards - You name it!

But people, being people, would see a vote on the question and immediately assume we were talking about Net decks...


Gizmo: We've had this discussion before. Now you're saying anyone who tries to use a deck of his own creation anywhere is dumb. The only decks worthy of play by people with any intelligence are Net decks, according to what you posted here.

Yet you've quit competitive play recently, but have stated more than once that you still prefer the deckbuilding aspect of Magic to the play aspect anyway. To me this says you're still involved in deckbuilding...somehow, somewhere...

Is it reasonable to assume a deck of yours has been posted online? Maybe even more than 1? Might there be any posted in the future? I would think that likely...

So what are you trying to say here? "Don't try this at home kids - leave it to trained professionals like myself. We know the risks...the dangers...and we are the only ones bright enough to build Magic decks."

Spare me...


YJ: As I said before, if it was not your intention to diss people who do not play competitively with Net decks then I apologize. That was my reaction to what you wrote, but if I misinterpreted what you were saying then I'm sorry I went off on you. And believe it or not, I do not undertstand your reference to your MBC tourney report. I probably read it, but I don't really remember any specifics about it, and if I referenced something in it here in a negative way it was unintentional.

But I still think you set up the poll specifically to get a vote that made it look like we all use Net decks when we play. And I resent being lumped in with a blanket statement like that.

Hmmm...You resent it when someone like me says they have less respect for players who use Net decks when playing competitively, and I resent it when someone tries to make it look like the majority of the people here use Net decks.

Sounds like we're going to continue to disagree on this one...

 

[Spiderman]

TomB: The only time YJ mentioned "crawling under a rock and evolving" was in the Voting Topics thread in Voting forum, and it reads thus:

The reality of it is, there's nothing wrong with using "Internet Resources" for your decks <PERIOD!>.
It's okay, anyone who thinks less of people who do, need to climb back underneath their slimey rock and evolve more .

There's nothing saying that if you don't use a Net Deck, you're a Neanderthal and need to evolve. In this way do I think you misinterpreted what YJ was trying to say.

But people, being people, would see a vote on the question and immediately assume we were talking about Net decks...

As I stated, I didn't see the question as about Net Decks. And it's not clear of the people who responded on this thread whether they did too. So here's a poll question: Do you think the term "internet resource for Magic" solely refers to Net Decks?

But I still think you set up the poll specifically to get a vote that made it look like we all use Net decks when we play. And I resent being lumped in with a blanket statement like that.

I never saw it this way, thus I didn't take offense.

Putting personal feelings aside, it looks like you're the only one so far to vehemently express your disagreement about this. Is that going to prevent you from putting up the question if it seems no one objects to it?

 

[Gizmo]

Is is Tomb`s.. you know... time of the month, or what?

Gizmo: We've had this discussion before. Now you're saying anyone who tries to use a deck of his own creation anywhere is dumb.

I said this. I stand by this. deliberately locking yourself away from the wealth of experience and information on the net IS dumb. If you decide you want to build a Spikes deck up, what the hell is wrong with going and asking YJ what he had in his version that was good/cool?

The only decks worthy of play by people with any intelligence are Net decks, according to what you posted here. ... So what are you trying to say here? "Don't try this at home kids - leave it to trained professionals like myself. We know the risks...the dangers...and we are the only ones bright enough to build Magic decks."
Spare me...

I did NOT say that. Don`t put words into my mouth. I`ll manage to find the words to express exactly what I mean on my own if you don`t mind.

Who was th first person to make this a tirade for/against net decks? You were.

Grow up.

 

[fuzzy510]

My answer is no. The decks I build are purely developed by me. No outside influence at all.

Of course, that's why they all suck.

 

[Chaos Turtle]

Well let me stick my BUNNY in the weed-whacker...

1- Yes. Hell yes.
2- Yes. Hell yes.

In other words, I am not the least bit ashamed that I use "Internet Resources" to build decks. I have bookmarked (and cached) many webpages with decklists in every current environment. I read Gary Wise's limited reviews religiously. I pay attention, in short, to pretty much everything the knowledgeable internet writers put out for me to read. I don't necessarily take it as gospel, but sure and why the heck not?

Do I ever build original decks? Sure I do. Do I play them? Sure I do. Do I take them to tournaments? Not anymore. Why? Because it has taken me two years of (on average) once-monthly tournaments to get my DCI rating back to where it started, after a low point of 1480-ish, the result of a damn-the-torpedos deckbuilding philosophy. (And let me tell you that since the K-value system was implemented, building one's rating at small local tournaments is hard work! )

For me, whether I use an "original" deck or a netdeck depends entirely upon where I intend to play it.

Despite being a "casual player" I like to compete. When I compete, I like to win. So, in competition, I use a deck that I expect to win with. Now, I am of the same school of thought as Zadok here, in that I don't like to play the deck-of-the-month (or season, as in Fires' case). I hate playing something where every opponent knows exactly what I'm up to every single turn (I played Fires exactly one time, and hated it). I will give myself a little credit for metagaming, though. I make minor alterations to decks to suit what I think people are going to be playing (luckily, the local metagame is simple, if not entirely predictable), and to suit my own play style (strongly leaning toward control, not necessarily counter-based).

Now, if I'm over at a friend's house, I'm not going to trounce all over him with some (to him) godly creation while he sits back trying to get a Pestilence/White Knight combo to bear fruit. I'm going to play something fun. Entertaining, but geared to win. Maybe. I hope. At least we'll have fun, though. Even then, I can't help but be influenced by what I've read online. For example, Unnatural Selection/Pure Reflection might have occured to me eventually, but I saw it mentioned someplace (no idea where, sorry) and thought it looked like fun. It is, sorta.

Sadly, the days when I have the time to sit around thinking up decks to play are gone. Maybe post-retirement, if Magic is still around in 2050, I'll find the time. But for now, I defer to those who've done the work for me.

 

[TomB]

Originally posted by Spiderman
Putting personal feelings aside, it looks like you're the only one so far to vehemently express your disagreement about this. Is that going to prevent you from putting up the question if it seems no one objects to it?

Of course not Spiderman. I didn't even think that was a question...

Of course it is true I've been neglecting my duties changing out the Voting Booth topic for a while now. It just isn't as important to me anymore, so if you want to change it yourself then you, or any other Mod for that matter, please, feel free to do so whenever you like to whatever you like.

I don't really have a problem with that...

Originally posted by Gizmo
I said this. I stand by this. deliberately locking yourself away from the wealth of experience and information on the net IS dumb. If you decide you want to build a Spikes deck up, what the hell is wrong with going and asking YJ what he had in his version that was good/cool?

Giz, let's get something straight. I did not say there was anything wrong with using the Internet to get information. I did not say there was anything wrong with looking at decks, or talking to other people. I even admitted to using Internet resources for my decks under questioning in my 1st posting in this thread...

But I refuse to believe that someone is dumb if they use a deck they made themselves. To me it's dumber by far to use a well known Net deck, as is, than it would be to use something you cooked up yourself that specifically attacks the metagame.

Please understand, I'm not assuming they made it entirely themselves. Maybe it's a modification of an older design, like what Zadok was talking about. Maybe it was an idea that someone developed after talking about a combo in a chatroom, or reading a magazine. Maybe it started as a kooky idea in the Deck Forum of a place like this, or MtgNews...

And I'm not saying they didn't playtest it on Apprentice, or discuss it in a newsgroup. And I'm fairly well assuming they bought at least half the cards online.

But my point is this: You are cheating yourself out of half the enjoyment this game has to offer if you don't at least try to build and play your own decks! And maybe it does make me a Neanderthal, but I DO have more respect for someone that plays with decks they designed themselves, using whatever resources they needed to use to do it.

Like I said, in my opinion, Istanbul got it exactly right.

Originally posted by Gizmo
Who was th first person to make this a tirade for/against net decks? You were.

Grow up.

Hmmm...Well, that makes 2 of ya' that think I'm out here playin' the Lone Freakin' Ranger again...and it looks like you're right.

I guess I WILL go crawl under my slimey rock and evolve some more...

 

[Spiderman]

Get out from under that rock! You only have to go there if you think LESS of anyone who uses a Net Deck!

I was merely asking because it seemed you were putting up some strenuous arguments on YJ's question. I've always considered the Voting Booth to be "your" thing, but if you want to hand it off, I can do it (except not right now for reasons in Off-Topic ) I just never knew how to edit the Booth.

It's kinda ironic that the people who MAKE a deck a Net Deck are the ones who ARE building their own decks and playing them. A Net Deck has to start from somewhere

It's not a Bad Thing to be a Lone Ranger. And I certainly don't think less of you for it. Lord knows I was a Lone Ranger on several things here and on the old Dojo boards. So c'mon, get on Silver, and I'll join you as Tonto someday

 

[Istanbul]

I believe that the poll was poorly worded.

Essentially, everyone here seems to agree that using net resources to help build your deck is good.
Only Chaos Turtle has come out in favor of actually using netdecks. Gizmo has only said that cutting yourself off from the resources that the Internet presents altogether is insane, and (I can't believe I'm saying this) I agree with him.

 

[Hellion]

YJ, u got yourself a lot of flak for posting this thread but it's all for a good cause because at the end of the day, we all know that this thread made those who read it realise that we ALL use the internet as a form of resource to refer to build or tune our decks.

I myself have a webpage of my own and have ppl that visit it. I also post there my opinons about cards that would and might not make it...overhype cards and all that...but that's another story...

But I dare say that most of us use net decks as a way to gauge what is the current metagame and wat decks are really popular at the international level. Some of us also use it to look for old decks that nobody remembers anymore...to build and make them reborn again.

It's all about personal preference really......

 

[Apollo]

Ignoring the wealth of information and experience on the internet is a noble purpose. But it`s also really dumb.
It`s tantamount to being one of those idiot guys who try to sail across the pacific in a wicker boat because they think the Samoans managed it eight hundred years ago, or somebody who is trying to climb Everest in their gym socks.

TomB, I think you've slightly misinterpreted what Gizmo is saying here. He isn't calling anybody that makes his own deck dumb; he's saying if you make that deck without using the resources available to you, dumb. I make my own decks, but I use the internet when making them. I had a neat little G/U deck with some fast mana, and Wumpuses, and some other fun stuff (it's not that good). But I saw on the net that Plow Under was becoming very popular, and people had success with it. So I tried them in my G/U deck, found they worked, and it got better. I wasn't letting other people make my deck, and it certainly wasn't expected when I played it. But I ws definitely using the ideas available on the internet to improve my deck. All Gizmo is saying that it's dumb not to use all the resources available to you. It's like leaving the Lightning Bolts out of an old Sligh deck because you don't want to be like everybody else; you're just denying yourself. He certainly wasn't saying that making your own decks is dumb.

And of course, my answer is yes.