Dark Ritual too strong?

[Spiderman]

A carry over from the Dojo, there was an article by Sean McKeon (sp?) about how Dark Ritual is fueling a lot of powerful decks lately and perhaps it should be banned. This raised a more interesting discussion in the forums, one that actually is coherent. Some are agreeing with McKeon, most are not (I'm leaning toward the former myself).

Do you guys have any thoughts?

 

[Mr_Pestilence]

I don't think its too strong. Think about it - you're paying 1 Black mana and discarding a card (the Ritual) for a one shot gain of 2 Black mana! Ooh, boy...

Yes, you can do some amazing things with a first turn DR, such as Phyrexian Negator, multiple Duresses, etc. But when your opponent goes "Mountain, Shock Negator" where is the advantage?

If you want to talk about broken, how about Voltaic Key and Grim Monolith? With these things on the board, you can get more mana out of these Artifacts thatn you put into them EVERY turn, with no loss of a card from your hand.
***************

 

[Wizard2000]

I don't think Ritual is too powerful. It's been around since the beginning and nobody has griped about it really until now. This is only because the current environment is so weak in power that the ritual suddenly seems like a God card. If WotC bans this card then black will become almost as bad as red.

This guy on the Dojo is probably just trying to rally support because he got his ass whipped by someone using a ritual and he couldn't stand it. The problem is not with ritual, but with the rest of the environment... if ritual is that strong then what does that tell you about the other cards coming from WotC? Someone needs to tell him to sit down and shut up trying to get ritual banned, and to start trying to lobby to WotC that they are treading on thin, thin ice with the community. If they are not careful someone will make a good card game and put them in their place.

 

[Dune Echo]

You know, by that reasoning, Wizard, Lightning Bolt needs to be brought back since it's not overly efficient any more.

-Dune Echo

One can dream, alright?!

 

[magicman_moe]

NAHHHHHHH i dont think that dr is too strong hell its the only thing that keeps my brother in the games we play but then after that i crush him like a bug with my worms and other crap hehehehehe

IIIII AMAMAMAMAMAMAM moe-me

 

[Quill]

Dark Ritual is not too strong..too many black cards are overcosted. If not for the ritual to get a jump on the other colors black wouldn't stand a chance in a mono deck. Now if WOTC wants to start giving black cheaper spells I'm all for that..but that would reallymake the playing field uneven. Maybe black could get some kind of black llanowar elf?

 

[arhar]

There is a black Llanowar Elf - it's called Blood Pet =) He also has a bigger brother - Blood Vassal. And, technically speaking, he has a lot of relatives, but all of them are not T2 or Extended anymore.. Except for Derelor..

As for the issue, i think the only card that should be banned is NECRO. That card is just stupid. Ban Necro, and everything will be good again As simple as it sounds, it is actually true. 99% of combo decks rely on Necro power for drawing cards. I mean, there are other necro-type cards, but they are either banned or restricted or either not that powerful.

 

[Wizard2000]

I may have been a little blunt in the previous posting... I was in a hurry. I agree with Quill on the issue. A lot of black spells have high casting costs.

As for the blood pet, he is a one shot deal. You have to sac him for B. A black Llanowar elf type of card would be a necessity if they tossed the ritual, otherwise black would not stand up well to its rival green. If ritual were dropped and black was given a couple of mana producing creatures then I could live with the loss.

Also, remember the spellshaper with Dark Ritual powers. I honestly don't remember the name, but I think the cost was 2B. With the first swamp you cast the black elf, then on turn 2 you put out a swamp your ritual creature. The ritual would not be totally lost, but there wouldn't be any 1st turn negators.

 

[Zadok001]

If they ban Ritual, why play black? What do you get? A bunch of overcosted cards and graveyard recursion, with a bit of creature kill tossed in for good measure. Seriously, look at all the things black has:

1. Recursion: No color can really match this.

2. Fat creatures: Big, yes. But usually overcosted, like Delraich. Four and five mana creatures are fairly easy to come by in black. And what color doesn't have fat creatures (usually at lower casting costs, too!)?

3. Weenies: Carnophage and Sarcomancy. How many people would play those things if there was no Ritual? Cast turn one and two Carnophages? Green does better, turn one Jaguar, turn two Rancor.

Black has nothing the other colors can't match. Except, of course, Dark Ritual.

 

[Baron Sengir]

They should not ban the ritual because this is the very essence of what black is supposed to be good at: quick temporary power. Look at Phyrexian Negator and Necro if you need additional proof.

This goes back to my original arguments on the dojo bulletin board. There are cards that represent what the colors are supposed to be good at that should remain in the basic set. Dark Ritual is definitely one of them.

I remain
The Baron
Besides, how the hell are you supposed to cast my card without a ritual or two? I'm too damn expensive!

 

[Chaos Turtle]

While I don't necessarily agree with Wizard's reasoning, it should be pointed out that Dark Ritual is not strictly parallel to Lightning Bolt.
See, the Ritual lets you trade one mana and one card for 3 mana, netting 2 mana. Mana in and of itself does nothing, and you're trading card advantage to get time advantage.
The Bolt, however, does do something on its own: 3 damage. By trading one mana and one card, we can maintain card parity by offing a (fairly big) creature. Most creatures that can be killed with a bolt cost quite a bit more than 1 mana, so the power is significantly greater.

Back to the Ritual:
The speed advantage granted by the ritual is only powerful in combination with other cards (Negator, Necro, etc) and I don't think it ought to be banned. Consider, though, the Lotus Petal. Here we have to trade 0 mana and one card for 1 mana, and it was deemed too great an advantage in speed. Therefore, don't be surprised if Ritual gets the axe. (It may even be replaced with something like "Dim Ritual. B. Inst. Add BB to your mana pool.")

[Edited by Chaos Turtle (02-26-2000 at 05:27 AM).]

 

[Spiderman]

Well, it looks like I'll be the lone voice against. And to be honest, I don't play in tourneys to know how and if DR is unbalancing. So....

You are arguing it's only a net gain of 2 mana. Is two mana too much? What if it was toned down to a net gain of one mana? Or if Culling the Weak, where you have to sacrifice a creature, was a "fixed" version?

Because pretty much everything starts happening at a three mana casting cost. One and two mana casting cost stuff is sort of a set up, three is where you get creatures and others that start having good effects. And perhaps being able to use them on the first turn (essentially giving a two turn lead on the other player) for "free" is too much.

I'm not saying it's right, but look at other "net gain" mana boosters. The Moxes (0 for 1), Sol Ring (1 for 2), Lotus Petal (one shot 0 for 1). All of them have been deemed too strong. The only one that hasn't is Lion's Eye Diamond where the drawback is/was? considered too much for it to work.

Anyway, I hear what you guys are saying and I agree that one-shot mana acceleration is part of black. I'm just saying that perhaps "3 for 1" is too much without a penalty and perhaps alternatives need to be looked at as mentioned above.

Or maybe Necro IS the problem...

 

[Wizard2000]

I find it odd that we are having this discussion now... after Magic has been around for how many years?

If the Ritual were gone then black would lose its speed mana. The color would have to have something like a llanowar elf and maybe even a black rofellos type card. If ritual just vanished then black would be highly weakened and would probably see little to no use as a mono color.

They could give Ritual a new name and have it as B and pay 1 life for BBB. If you do a ritualistic ceremony surely it will take a little out of you (1 life). What might it be named... hmmm...

 

[TomB]

I don't. With the way the game is going (read that as 'being weakened in order to promote longer than 3 turn games') Dark Ritual IS overpowered. Functioning as both a power boost for combo decks (Bargain, Trix) and as a quick way to get out a superior beatdown creature (Negator), Dark Rit is just too powerful in this elim light, counter wimpy environment.

But for all that, is the best answer really banning? I think not. I think bringing back cheaper elim like the STP and the Bolt would be a better idea. Improving the quality of the counterspells available to t2 would help out with the combo decks. Bringing back the red Blasts would have the same effect.

Green's got an answer to Ritualed out Necros already with the Lyrist, and has big enough, cheap enough creatures to stop the bleeding from an early Negator and recover. Straight black will always have some problems with combo, but if their Ritualed out Negator can kill the opponent before the Illusions (or whatever) can hit the table it'd do OK.

And white, of course, has Disenchant, Scour, Light of Day, and Exile available in t2. Granted, it's no STP, but an Exile will deal with the Negator problem, and give you back some life in the process. You've just got to draw it in time.

Of course, your opponent faced the same odds when they drew the Ritual that started the whole thing. I won't tell you just how many Ritual-less draws I've pulled with my all black Extended deck, and I think you know what I'm talking about.

The point is, I think with some minor adjustments to the card pool, and the existing tools at our disposal, the Dark Ritual would once again become balanced but powerful.

And isn't that what we look for in a card?

TomB
CPA Member

 

[Spiderman]

Wiz: It is rather interesting... and amusing

TomB: I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Of course, since DR will only be in Expert expansions from now on, it'll probably drop from a couple stand-alones here and there so the environment will be without it for a while.

 

[Quill]

Tomb..I'm going to have to disagree with you on the suggestion that bringing back Swords to Plowshares, would even things out. StP is extremely overpowered, especially since it removes creatures from the game. Additionally its out of character for white to have that kind of removal (In my opinion). Humble is a much better card for white. I agree with your opinion on lightning bolt completely but StP is on a whole different level.
Just my opinion of course

 

[Dune Echo]

Is STP really that overpowered? I honestly don't know. I hate giving my opponent life so I never played with it. I always thought Lightning Bolt and Terror were so much better. STP is only good against nearly creatureless decks as far as I can figure it. So what exactly makes it so good other than its an ability white does not normally have?

-Dune Echo

Just curious.

 

[Chaos Turtle]

STP's main problem is not necessarily that it's overpowered, but rather undercosted.
White has kept the remove-from-game ability, but with both higher cost and restrictions.
Giving an opponent some life to permanently remove a threat is no more a drawback than having to give a creature Forestwalk with your Erhnam Djinn.
Exile is an excellent and fair replacement, and Topple and Last Breath are both reasonably good.

Ritual is not likely to be banned, though it may simply be allowed to fade away by not ever being reprinted. I honstly wouldn't miss it all that much anyhow...not any more than Lightning Bolt.

 

[Dune Echo]

Guys, check out Meridian Magic. Mana Vault and Dark Ritual are BANNED!

http://www.meridianmagic.com/

 

[Chaos Turtle]

Dune, that's amazing. We posted at exactly the same time (see CPA Issues Forum).

Yup, looks like I have to eat them words...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Ritual is not likely to be banned, though it may simply be allowed to fade away by not ever being reprinted...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mmmmmm....worddddssss.