Damage Resolution

Discussion in 'CPA/WOTC Magic Issues' started by Limner, Aug 9, 1999.

  1. Limner New Member

    The ability of a creature to deal combat damage after it is tapped or sacrificed should not be allowed. The confusion and rules lawyering aside it clearly a non-intuitive result.
    This problem is solved by a simple clarification of combat steps.

    1) Combat phase is announced, responses made and resolved, 2) Attackers are assigned, responses made and resolved 3) Defenders assigned, responses made and resolved 4) Damage is assigned, responses made and resolved, damage is dealt.

    If you need a rationale for this think of it this way. I send over my Ogre (assign attacker), you Bolt him and I Giant Growth him (responses made and resolved), you throw an Elf in his way (assign blockers) we both pass (no responses), My Ogre raises it's club over your Elf's head as the Elf thrusts his dagger forward (assign damage) but you decide to use the Elf for mana at the last moment so the dagger never reaches it's mark (response and resolve) however the Ogre continues his bash and splats the Elf (damage dealt).

    This simplification of the combat phase would clear up most (if not all) confusion on damage dealing and cut out the rules lawyering caused by complicated response-resolution steps. Look forward to your input...the Limner.
  2. TomB Administrative Assistant

    I agree with you, Limner, that the 6E rules changes pertaining to creature damage during combat don't entirely make sense now. While I can live with the idea of a tapped defender doing combat damage anyway, I totally agree with you on the issue of creatures no longer in play still dealing combat damage. As far as I'm concerned, first strike, under the new rules, should no longer work, since all the combat damage is put on the stack at once. If I can have a creature's damage put on the stack and then bounce him back to my hand, or sacrifice him, the creature combat between a first striker and a non-first striker should result in both creatures dealing damage!

    That it does not is just another example of WotC deciding how something should work, and making it so by divine declaration.

    I'll tell you, though, the chances of them seeing this hole in their logic is slim, since all of the PTP's love this new rule. I'll tell ya' though, I've had a heck of a time trying to explain it to my wife and a few other people I've taught to play. They all think I'm cheating because it's so illogical, or, what was the word WotC used to sell us on the changes?

    Oh yeah. Non-intuitive.

    TomB
    CPA Member
    "I do not teach. I simply reveal."
    -Daudi, Femeref tutor
  3. GeneralStamp New Member

    I disagree. the new rules make make tons of creatures ( Tims,Saccables, and other creatures that can be tapped for abilies )
    alot better.This rule must stay.

    GeneralStamp

    "One,two,three,four don't know how to count no more..."
  4. Limner New Member

    Just because a rule makes some card better does not make the rule a good one. Yes some creatures are made better by this rule but the game overall is unbalanced by it. What if they made a ruling that regenerating creatures no longer tapped when they regenerated. Great, all my regenerating creatures are now better but look at the overall effect. The game loses balance when a ruling changes a basic premis that it has operated on since it's creation. It is just "common" sense that a creature removed from combat should not deal damage and just because it gives a sub-set of creatures a coll new ability does not make it a good rule.
  5. Ferret CPA Founder, Slacker

    You know, one of the cards I had fun collecting four of is sort of fading away into obsolescence: Icy Manipulator. The fun you could have tapping blockers, tapping artifacts, tapping whatever you wanted! Now, that doesn't matter. Tapped blockers might as well be untapped since they still do damage, most artifacts stay active even if tapped.

    Here's an idea: let's get rid of tapping altogether - it's just wasting our time and we could eliminate that annoying Untap phase and make the game even simpler...

    -ferret

    "...of course, tapping is copyrighted, so they almost HAVE to use it!"
  6. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I'll have to disagree here. I like the way combat is handled now and I don't think it's unbalanced. Technically, using Limner's rationale, I could Giant Growth the Ogre ANYTIME before the club actually hits the elf.

    I also don't think that using the Icy to tap a blocker is THAT big of a loss. You lose that "trick", you gain tapped defenders dealing damage (Tims and such, new tricks). I think it's just because people are used to the old tricks that they don't want to give them up. I wonder how people would feel if it was the other way around, that tapped blockers dealing damage had been the norm and all of a sudden that was gone? It just makes me think... (a bad thing? :))
  7. TomB Administrative Assistant

    Closer to Portal all the time, eh ferret?

    To your point, Spiderman, as I said in my earlier post, what about the part where creatures no longer in play still deal combat damage? How exactly does THAT make sense?

    I contend that if a creature is no longer in play to receive combat damage, then it cannot deal combat damage either (barring first strike, of course :) ).

    Period.

    To do it any other way makes no sense.

    TomB
    CPA Member
  8. Ferret CPA Founder, Slacker

    It all comes down to drastic rules changes. Imagine if other "Pro Sports" suddenly changed rules that are important to the game:

    Baseball no longer has balls - everything's a strike - you get three swings and you're out.

    Football decides that there's not such thing as Pass Interference.

    Hockey says no physical contact whatsoever or you're in the 'Box.

    These may seem a bit extreme, but the changing of damage resolution, continuous artifact usage, and blocking - not to mention the annoying end step problem - have dramaticaly changed the game.

    It's liked they released a brand new game and forgot to tell us...

    -ferret

    "...VIIth Edition will eliminate the discard phase and Sorceries..."
  9. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I will concede that having creatures removed from combat deal damage does NOT make sense. However, I can understand WOTC trying to make it consistent (when the stacking damage step has been reached, all damage is stacked).

    Wait.... now that I think about it, it's kind of like removing the source of an ability does not remove the ability itself. That part has been in the rules for a long time. This is bringing damage more in line with every other ability.

    So I'm changing my mind again. :) It doesn't make sense because we've been indoctrined the old way, yet it's consistent with the rules after all.
  10. TomB Administrative Assistant

    One more time, for old times sake, Spiderman...

    Combat damage is NOT an ability, like pinging, or mana generation. It is the result of a hand to hand combat between their creature and yours (metaphysically, of course :cool: ), and as such, should follow the laws of physics, if nothing else.

    I understand what you're saying with reference to the "stacking" thing, but I disagree with you that combat damage needs to be handled the same way. I think combat is different, and should be handled differently.

    I think we can agree to disagree on this one. :)

    TomB
    CPA Member
  11. K1 New Member

    Wow guys. I feel like I'm on the dojo again ;^). I remember that LOOOOOOONG argument you had there.
  12. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Righty-ho, TomB. :)

    K1: I remember arguing more with Scurry13 than anyone else... but you're right, these issues have all been hashed over again and again.
  13. CthulhuDragon New Member

    Just a comment on the Icy manipulator tapping blockers trick. This still works! There is time to activate abilities and instants before the combat damage step. Tapped blockers DO NOT put their damage on the stack. You must wait till the damage is on the stack to tap them to get that effect. So in essence, after someone declares blockers you can tap that blocker and have it deal no damage.
    Sorry for the rules lawyering,
    Cthulhu Dragon
  14. ChasDen Moderator

    The manipulator can not work the way it did.

    C-1 Rulling.3 Combat is defined as:
    1. Triggers on “beginning of combat” – chance for instants.
    2. Declare attackers.
    3. Triggers on attack declaration – chance for instants
    4. Declare blockers
    5. Triggers on block declaration – chance for instants
    6. Assign combat damage (but don’t deal it)
    7. Chance for instants
    8. Deal combat damage
    9. Triggers on damage being dealt – chance for instants
    10. Triggers on “end of combat” – chance for instants. Creatures killed or removed from combat before step 6 don’t deal of receive damage. Ones killed or removed from combat during step 7 still deal damage but will not receive it.

    C-4.6 A creature becomes a blocking creature during the declaration and remains a blocking creature until removed from the combat or until the end of the phase.

    C-5 ruling 2 ….. Note – There use to be a rule that if a blocking creature was tapped at the time it would deal damage, then it would not. This rule no longer exists.

    In essence the only way that a blockers damage will not be placed on the stack is to remove it from the combat. Once it is assigned as a blocker, tapping it means nothing. If you tap it before step 4 it can not block because it is tapped. If you tap it after it’s a blocker it still assigns its damage. To make it even more annoying for your opponent consider this.

    C-5.1 The active player announces how each attacking creature will deal damage. Then the defending player announces how each blocking creature will deal its damage. These announcements go on the stack as a single entry. Then the active player receives priority to play spells and abilities. When the announcements resolve, the damage is actually dealt to the creatures. (remember the damage is on the stack already and is just “waiting” to be assigned) Once there its there.

    Under the new rules, block with a creature that has a tap ability. Tap it during step 5 to do what ever and then put it back in your hand during step 7. The best of all worlds. You block the attacker, get to use its tap ability, deal your damage and put it back in your hand so you can do it all over again next turn. Think of the possibilities. The only complaint that I have under the new combat rules is the attacking player use to be at the advantage, now the defending player is often in the advantage. No big deal if you think it out ahead of time and play things in the right order.

    OK I will shut up now

    Life is too Short
    Enjoy while you can
  15. Dune Echo CPA Founder, Idea Man

    Gee, I know who I'm going to for rules questions from now on! Man, Chuck, you're rules GOD!
  16. Ferret CPA Founder, Slacker

    After seeing all that, it kind of makes you wonder if VIth Edition Rules actually did anything to truly SIMPLIFY Magic...

    -ferret

    "...I want my Icys to be worth something again!"
  17. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I seem to remember combat under 5th and previous pretty much the same way. The only thing that's REALLY different is steps 6-8, the combat damage stack, and trying to define the damage prevention step would probably take up the same space.

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