Colorless spells

Discussion in 'Home Made Cards' started by evan d, Apr 13, 2005.

  1. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Green also had it (Unyaro Bee Sting). And Black had a counter spell in Ice Age? Mirage? as another example of colors crossing their "color pie abilities". :)
  2. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    The only black counterspell I can think of is Withering Boon, which counters creature spells. It's not very good...
  3. Force of Will Smith New Member

    i disagree.. withering boon can be amazing... if your opponent is getting ready to cast a creature with power 4 or greater or something thats annoying as hell..

    I'll cast kokusho... nope... counter...
  4. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    <shrug> Well, it costs more than if it was a blue counterspell 'cause it's not in it's usual color. Same thing with Unyaro Bee Sting - 4 cc to do 2 damage? Of course they're not "good", but it's something for that color.
  5. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Exactly. But Withering Boon only counters creature spells. Black already has the best creature removal in the game. Withering Boon is not awful, but it can't hope to compete with black's creature-killing spells.

    I would have liked to have seen Withering Boon be able to counter any spell, regardless of type. But then, maybe that's because I'm fantasizing about black stealing blue's throne as the most powerful color in the game...

    UNBAN/UNRESTRICT NECROPOTENCE!
  6. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Well, at the time Withering Boon was made, white still had StP, so it didn't really have "the best creature removal". It's a counter ability for a color that normally doesn't have it - I think a lot of colors "back then" had a narrow counter ability type - aside from color hosers like Deathgrip and the green equivalent or the Red/Blue Elemental Blasts, I think red had a counter artifact spell (Artifact Blast?), white might have had a counter artifact or enchantment spell...

    Countering a spell could be better in some cases than a creature killing spell, if you're playing against a 187 deck or a deck that exploits creatures coming into play (Pandemonium). There are some uses for it, which is better than nothing for a color that normally doesn't receive countering.
  7. DarthFerret Evil Sith Weasel

    With Withering Boon, you could use it to stop a White Knight, whereas any of the other creature removal (at least the ones that "Target" a creature) in black would be totally useless. To put it this way, would blue be as good a color if all the creature countering cards were creature killing cards instead?
  8. Force of Will Smith New Member

    Yeah i think boon is just a "oh ****" factor... plus i LOVE the artwork...
    robert bliss always does great dead slimy things...

    plus those annoying pro black/cant be targeted/indestructible/artifact/regenerating creatures are what you'd use it for..
    much better than that destroy target legend one we have from betrayers.. talk about strictly sb..
  9. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I meant overall. White still has StP in my mind (cards don't disappear from the game, they just rotate out of formats I don't even play).

    But that does remind me that Black's best creature removal spells were still to come. I mean, they had Dark Banishing, Contagion, etc. But Diabolic Edict, Spinning Darkness, and some other nice creature removal spells were yet to come...

    I never said Withering Boon was crap. A friend of mine used it in a very good monoblack deck as utility against a lot of creatures he would rather not deal with. It worked out pretty well. And that deck went toe-to-toe with my broken Tolarian Academy deck I was using at the time. Withering Boon has its place.

    But it's normally cast aside in favor of spells like Diabolic Edict or Contagion, and with good reason. I'm glad I own a playset of Boons, but I'd like them much better if they could counter ANYTHING! :D

    Unban/unrestrict Necropotence.
  10. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Well, if you're talking creature removal in general, I'd say it would be red at the time, just for sheer blast-i-ness. Dark Banishing is still only non-black. Contagion "costs" you a card despite being free.

    And white had the great board clearer of Wrath of God, for just one more mana than Dark Banishing.

    I think the Boon complements black's creature removal, provided you kinda plan for it in the deck as you do pay 3 life a shot.

    But I never said that you said Boon was crap... I don't think anyone else said you did either.
  11. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Well, I said it is "not very good." Then three people posted comments defending it, largely be explaining how it can be used. I'm already familiar with how Boon can be used. I think I must have given the impression that I was not, because three people posted positive comments about Withering Boon. That seems somewhat characteristic of them believing that I think of Withering Boon as a bad card, and not really characteristic of believing that I understand that it fits a specialized role.

    Anyway, when I made that comment, I was thinking about Withering Boon in the context of using it NOW. I am not at all sure about how its merit has changed since it was first printed...

    I never said that you said I said Boon was crap... :rolleyes:
  12. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Yes, but as typical of your posts, that's ALL you say. You don't say why, or in what context, or explain yourself further. So taking Withering Boon as a whole, which one must assume one has to do since you just post a throwaway line like that, of course Withering Boon is not a good counter in of itself because it's not blue, the counter color. But for black, it can be useful.

    So who said the Boon was crap that you had to post that you said it wasn't?
  13. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    It's not as though I randomly posted a thread about Withering Boon, like...

    Withering Boon: not very good.

    I was pointing out the NAME of the black counter, and tacked on "not very good" as an afterthought. I was not planning on discussing it further, although it is not a problem for me to do so. It was never intended to be a "throwaway" line, because the discussion until that point had not been focused on Withering Boon. It was more of an aside. I don't know what you mean by "typical of your posts, that's ALL you say." I think I have explained myself further. But to elaborate on Withering Boon...

    Advantages:

    1B mana cost is pretty cheap
    Low colored mana requirement makes it splashable
    Abilities such as regeneration, protection from black, untargetability do not stop it
    CIP abilities will not be activated

    Disadvantages:

    Cannot remove an existing creature, so mana must be kept available
    Life loss hurts a bit in a color that is probably already paying life for other effects
    Since it must be cast while the spell is being on the stack, it must be in your hand
    Cannot deal with creatures that are put into play by means other than casting

    There are some other minor advantages (negating "leaves play" abilities) and disadvantages (unable to hit "can't be countered" creatures). But the ones I listed are the most important ones. The advantages and disadvantages are usually easy to see. What is more difficult is determining what decks would want to use it, and whether it is good enough to be used in such decks. Decks that include an amount of blue would favor something like Mana Leak over Withering Boon, so it is unlikely to be used there.

    So we must limit our analysis to decks that use black, but do not use blue. Black has become increasingly capable of dealing with creatures that are untargetable or have protection from black, thanks to the printing of more sacrifice removal spells like Chainer's Edict and Barter in Blood. And a lot of black's creature removal spells are cheap, ranging from virtually free (Contagion and Spinning Darkness) to three or four mana, depending on the effect you want.

    So, Withering Boon's primary advantage is going to be its ability to negate things like CIP abilities. This is certainly a valid reason for using a card like Withering Boon.

    Now the issue is both one of the proclivity of opposing decks to use creatures with dangerous CIP abilities, and the likelihood that Withering Boon would be the best way of dealing with such decks. No metagame is completely saturated with such creatures, and in formats with sideboards, Withering Boon is highly unlikely to be desired for sideboard slots. So, the decks that would have really want Withering Boon would be ones that need to protect themselves from the effects of creatures with dangerous CIP (and on rare occasions "leaves play" abilities).

    However, the creatures best known for such abilities are ones that really only replicate an instant or sorcery. Withering Boon can protect me from Uktabi Orangutan, but then my artifact is still quite vulnerable to Naturalize. It can stop an Eternal Witness, but my opponent might just use Regrowth. It can stop Man-o'-War, but not Boomerang. And so, for this reason, Withering Boon's usefulness is limited further still.

    However, the specialized role that Withering Boon fits (countering a creature spell of any color without blue mana) has never really been filled by another card (I can't think of any). So it is entirely possible that situations will arise in which Withering Boon is a truly solid choice for a deck's creature removal. For this reason, it cannot be completely discounted.

    In conclusion, Withering Boon is typically a mediocre card.

    I spent my last post explaining why I said "I never said Boon was crap."

    To elaborate on THAT...

    I thought I must have given the IMPRESSION that I believed Withering Boon to be crap. Force of Will Smith pointed out that it can be used against large creatures (and can negate their CIP/leaves play abilities too). You explained that it is in a color that doesn't normally have counters. DarthFerret jumped in with the White Knight example.

    I am entirely familiar with every one of these concepts. I find it hard to believe that any of you would be pointing them out if you had been given the impression that they were things I was already taking into account. Which is why I think I gave the impression that I considered Withering Boon to be crap (or close to it). So when I said "I never said Boon was crap" it did not necessarily mean that someone else had previously said "Oversoul said Boon was crap." I was using it merely to clarify and not to refute anything.
  14. DarthFerret Evil Sith Weasel

    hmmm...switching gears aren't we?...well...lets pile it on then...

    What if Withering Boon was a colorless spell?...what cost would you put to it?...LOL
  15. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    If I understand the above correctly, you were originally saying that the name "Withering Boon" was not good and not commenting on it's effect within the black color pie? That didn't come across at all... before that, we were talking about spells that crossed the color pie, not discussing whether they had good names or not (unless I totally misunderstood THAT portion of the thread also).

    You may not realize it, but you post a lot of one-liners like that. I notice them at least in General or Decks. I don't think you have lately because those forums have been pretty dead the last couple of weeks, but if you happen to do it again or a thread's brought up where there's an example, I'll point it out.

    Now that's more like it :)

    There's two ways you can look at Withering Boon. The effect it would have had on the environment back then when it came out and now.

    For the environment back then, I would agree with that it's main purpose would be preventing CIP creatures coming in, seeing how they exploded with the Visions expansion. And the untargetability started to become more prevalent (at least with Jolrael's Centaur - I think there was some more in the Mirage block - I hope there was).

    With the advent of Diabolic Edict in Tempest and subsequent black removal spells that were "better" than Terror or Dark Banishing, Withering Boon may have slipped in its already limited appeal. I don't think you can seriously build a tourney deck around it, but it still has a couple of casual uses besides preventing CIP abilities. It could be used as backup for a black Portcullis deck, or any deck that might limit the number of creatures in play. It could be used in a BW deck of some sort that simply counters the opponent's creatures and where the white helps with the lifegaining to offset the Boon's cost. There's probably a couple more...

    Maybe jorael or Limited could use it as a basis for a Making It Work article... ;)
  16. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Following this post, I pointed out the name of the black counter to which I believed you were referring. For some reason, I decided to post "not very good" as an afterthought. I guess I was remembering some game with Withering Boon or something there. It's not like I commented on the quality of Unyaro Bee Sting or Psionic Blast or anything like that. So it really didn't fit for me to throw that last line on there. Although it is what started this whole discussion, so I guess it turned out to be okay...

    As far as one-liners go--as strange as out-of-place as commenting on the quality of Withering Boon was, dissecting the card to the extent I did in my last post would have been even stranger (when taken in the context of responding with the name of the card you were referring to). That might be sort of fun to do in a perverse, look-how-much-time-I-have-on-my-hands sort of way...

    Maybe I'll try it some time when someone can't think of the name of a card... :D
  17. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Helping out with the name of the spell was fine. But yeah, throwing the one-liner in there didn't make sense, especially as the way you intended. Two other people apparently took your one-liner to mean the same thing I did, a comment on the quality of the spell itself, and to be honest, who the heck comments on the quality of the name of a card out of the blue?

    It might have been strange, but it would have made more sense to the others reading it. Maybe not dissecting it to the point of the last post, but adding "it's not good because <explanation>".
  18. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    It was a comment on the quality of the spell itself. I don't see how you could interpret that any other way. It wasn't a comment on the quality of the name of the card. I don't know where you got that idea. I never said anything about the quality of the name of the card...
  19. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I got it from here:

    Of which I then replied

    And to which you never said right after that I understood miscorrectly, though now you apparently are.

    I didn't initially think you could be commenting on the quality of the name of the card either, that seemed a bit far fetched, hence my attempt to restate your statement.
  20. jorael Craptacular!

    Are you guys still talking about Withering Boon? ;)

    Spiderman, about your ideas for using this card: I can see the card work in a specific kind of deck strategy, but I rather add blue to such a deck for some basic countering. The card is hard to use, a Making it Work about it could be interesting, but looks to me, you already had some good ideas :)

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