O
orgg
Guest
I think it was more of Plow Under being a card in eighth edition and written off by the WotC due to disuse in standard, personally.
Oversoul
The Tentacled One
I was throwing 20 out as a maximum. 25-30 was the range given earlier and I mentioned that I've never seen so many in a deck that worked.Gizmo said:
12 is pretty low for something as controlling as Forbidian, but I can picture it. I don't have my Forbidian deck anymore, but I think I would typically use 16. I never used 20 myself, but I have seen it done. 25 seem to me to be out of the question...
And 30?
S
Striking Dragon
Guest
Well 4 counterspell 4 Leak 4 FoW is the minimum pretty much, then Mis-D, force spike/disrupt, forbid. Miscalculation, Prohibit, dissipate are playable.
To me, black is much more annoying for casual play, dark ritual, hymn, duress, hyppies, targeted creature removal, untargetted creature removal. Destroys most casual strategies, is proactive, rather than reactive. Against blue you can try and take out their mass removal (usually in the tasty flavor of artifact) and race them; black equals 1swamp, ritual, duress, hymn 2 swamp/discard spell, 3 hyppie 4 fattie/extraction(which I must say messes my disk strategy up!). Even without the ritual, hymn is very powerful. I run up against black alot.... I'm bitter....
To me, black is much more annoying for casual play, dark ritual, hymn, duress, hyppies, targeted creature removal, untargetted creature removal. Destroys most casual strategies, is proactive, rather than reactive. Against blue you can try and take out their mass removal (usually in the tasty flavor of artifact) and race them; black equals 1swamp, ritual, duress, hymn 2 swamp/discard spell, 3 hyppie 4 fattie/extraction(which I must say messes my disk strategy up!). Even without the ritual, hymn is very powerful. I run up against black alot.... I'm bitter....
T
TheCasualOblivion
Guest
How many counterspells did Draw-Go use back in its day? I remember seeing these back in Tempest Block before Urza's where 4 Stalking Stones were the win condition. I think that deck was at least above 20 counterspells.
Oversoul
The Tentacled One
I just so happen to have an old T2 Draw-Go decklist I decided to dig up. It has as a countermagic base...
4 Counterspell
4 Forbid
4 Force Spike
3 Dismiss
2 Rewind
2 Mana Leak
There are some sideboard slots dedicated to Hyrdroblast and stuff too, but I am only counting the maindeck. Yes, it's win conditions are Stalking Stones (and some Drifting Djinns). I know that 1.X Draw-Go decks were different, but I don't have a decklist of one (you could probably find one on a search engine though, if you are really interested in them).
It MIGHT be possible to find some monoblue tournament deck that ran 25 counterspells, but it would be a rarity. I know I haven't played against or seen such a monstrosity. Anyway, the deck certainly wouldn't be Forbidian if it were any good (they want card advantage, not extra FoW fodder) at all.
Okay, to be honest, a friend of mine once built a deck in which every non-Island card was a Rainbow Efreet or a Nevinyrral's Disk. It was designed to annoy bad players (more likely it was designed to annoy everyone, but only worked on bad players). The deck was pretty horrible. I am not talking about joke decks like that...
Edit: I blanked out on your post and thought you were talking about Standard and not Rath Cycle (so my data is for a different format, making it completely useless). I don't have a decklist for that, but I doubt such a deck would have done well at all in the environment (you would want to ask someone who played block constructed back then, and that person is not me)...
4 Counterspell
4 Forbid
4 Force Spike
3 Dismiss
2 Rewind
2 Mana Leak
There are some sideboard slots dedicated to Hyrdroblast and stuff too, but I am only counting the maindeck. Yes, it's win conditions are Stalking Stones (and some Drifting Djinns). I know that 1.X Draw-Go decks were different, but I don't have a decklist of one (you could probably find one on a search engine though, if you are really interested in them).
It MIGHT be possible to find some monoblue tournament deck that ran 25 counterspells, but it would be a rarity. I know I haven't played against or seen such a monstrosity. Anyway, the deck certainly wouldn't be Forbidian if it were any good (they want card advantage, not extra FoW fodder) at all.
Okay, to be honest, a friend of mine once built a deck in which every non-Island card was a Rainbow Efreet or a Nevinyrral's Disk. It was designed to annoy bad players (more likely it was designed to annoy everyone, but only worked on bad players). The deck was pretty horrible. I am not talking about joke decks like that...
Edit: I blanked out on your post and thought you were talking about Standard and not Rath Cycle (so my data is for a different format, making it completely useless). I don't have a decklist for that, but I doubt such a deck would have done well at all in the environment (you would want to ask someone who played block constructed back then, and that person is not me)...
G
Gizmo
Guest
I actually had a quite search. 15/16 was the standard amount it looks like - a mix of Force Spike, Mana Leak, Forbid, and Force Of Will.TheCasualOblivion said:
If you played a deck with 20+ counterspells I think you would be making it very vulnerable to losing on bad draws. Counterspells are awful when the threat is already in play, so you dont want to play with too many of them. You have to have the removal to handle the threats in play (and often your removal generates more card advantage than countering things) and the card drawing to make the deck win.
Original Forbiddian
By Jon Finkel (Tempest/MiViLite Type II)
4 x Counterspell
2 x Mana Leak
3 x Forbid
4 x Impulse
4 x Whispers of the Muse
2 x Capsize
4 x Legacy's Allure
4 x Man-o'-War
4 x Ophidian
3 x Tradewind Rider
1 x Silver Wyvern
4 x Sapphire Medallion
4 x Quicksand
17 x Island
Forbidian
By Jon Finkel (Gateway Masters Tournament)
4x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
3x Forbid
3x Annul
4x Ophidian
3x Morphling
4x Powder Keg
2x Nevinyrral's Disk
4x Brainstorm
4x Impulse
4x Thawing Glaciers
4x Wasteland
2x Dust Bowl
15x Island
Sideboard:
1x Annul
2x Treachery
4x Flash
4x Hydroblast
4x Back to Basics
I believe the Annul's replaced Force Spikes for this particular tournament, as the field he expected to play against was very specific. You can mentally sub the Annuls for Force Spikes I think.
Forbidian
By Chris Pikula (Extended)
4 x Ophidian
2 x Morphling
4 x Counterspell
4 x Force of Will
3 x Forbid
4 x Force Spike
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Impulse
2 x Arcane Laboratory
3 x Nevinyrral's Disk
4 x Wasteland
4 x Mishra's Factory
4 x Thawing Glaciers
14 x Island
Forbidian
by Ang Juanang (Worlds 2001)
2 x Masticore
1 x Morphling
4 x Ophidian
3 x Back to Basics
4 x Counterspell
1 x Dissipate
2 x Forbid
4 x Force of Will
3 x Force Spike
3 x Impulse
1 x Misdirection
4 x Powder Keg
1 x Treachery
3 x Whispers of the Muse
20 x Island
4 x Wasteland