Building the Ultimate Izzet Deck.

[Force of Will Smith]

I've been messing around with different types of R/U variants and izzet seems to fill the gap of 2-4cc beefy creatures.

I currently have 3 R/u decktypes..
counterburn, tims, and t2 guild.

I think i combination of the three could make quite a powerful deck.

Wee Dragonauts -can be awesome (maybe 3)

Steamcore wierd- good but should be replaced by flametongue kavu

Ogre Savant( Amazing. Especially if he's flying, if this guys run you need 4 signets and at least a couple of the replicate flying cards)

Pyromantics: good for triggering instants, but not sure the worth

Leap of flame: has anyone had amazing effects with this?

Tibor and Lumia: unbelievable. White weenie never had a chance

Gigadrowse: one of the best replicate spells. I had a game where i payed UUUUUUU, and triggered gelectrode 7 times, and attacked with a 14/4 dragonaurs for 21 in a turn. Also when you tap many creatures, its cheaper than toils of day and night.

Izzet Chronarch: I think 2 is good. With the bounce replicate spell you could esentially get any spell over and over (time warp,etc)

Gelectrode: weak defense, dies to Lumia.. any thoughts?

Schmizotivate: I think this is definately solid.. helps a 1/1 kill a 7/7!!

Electrolyze: amazing.. i think this is a definate 4

Shattering spree: im thinking 2.. they can be so devastating and if you need to get rid of jitte some other way, mimeofacture works..
vacuumelt: i think for the price its good, im thinking of changing this out for undo..

Invoke the firemind: overratted but still good, especially if you re-fetch it again.. im running only 2.

Thunderheads: its cool, but somewhat defensive.. not sure if we really want that.
Repeal: solid but restrictive.. only 2.

Djinn illuminatus: im torn, the idea of paying RRRRR to deal 15 from a lightning
bolt is tempting

Cerebral Vortex: wierd.. not sure except i'd want to run windfall and wheel of fortune... paying 3UUR to deal 6-9 damage.. also considering combining drifting djinn with it.. that way 1UU for a 4/4 flier, and 1UR for 7 damage (2UUUR)

Goblin flectromancer: he seems nifty, but does about the same thing as a counterspell when they rend flesh your lumia.. what do you all think?


The second tim deck is basically overkill with tims. To make a long story short, im thinking of Razorfin hunter, quicksilver dagger, possibly psion gift or hermetic study.

finally from a counter burn i was considering:
lightning bolt, glacial ray, cloud of faeries for 2cc slot, possibly peer through depths, condescend, accumulated knowledge, and mana leak.

of course i'd probably be adding a morphling, a wheel of fortune, FTK, windfall, and maybe id even be cheesy and run jitte...

any thoughts? this is for casual/vintage etc... anything goes except cheating and ignoring ban restricted lists.

 

[jorael]

a Ravnica Block constructed deck I put together:

11 Island
9 Mountain
4 Izzet Boilerworks

4 Electrolize
4 Hypervolt Grasp (not sure about this one)
4 Cloudstone Curio

4 Sparkmage Apprentice
4 Hunted Phantasm
4 Steamcore Weird
4 Tibor and Lumia
4 Ogre Savant
4 Vedalken Dismisser

The idea is to abuse all those creatures with come into play abilities with the Curio.
Hunted Phantasm gives the deck some raw power and Tibor and Lumia makes sure that those goblin tokens won't survive.

Maybe I'll drop Hypervolt Grasp and run Mark of Eviction instead. Or some more red or R/U spells (to trigger Tibor and Lumia...)

 

[Limited]

Wee Dragonauts -can be awesome (maybe 3)
Steamcore wierd- good but should be replaced by flametongue kavu
Ogre Savant( Amazing. Especially if he's flying, if this guys run you need 4 signets and at least a couple of the replicate flying cards)
Pyromantics: good for triggering instants, but not sure the worth
Leap of flame: has anyone had amazing effects with this?
Tibor and Lumia: unbelievable. White weenie never had a chance

I agree on some points: Wee Dragonauts is the bomb! Usually just a good defender, until you play out several instant to force through a whole lot of damage. Ogre Savant is great (and really shows how good Man-o'-War really is). Pyromantics is just good removal, and Izzet decks need lots of mana anyway so late game you will have a lot of mana. The pyromantics will be one hell of a top deck then.
I haven't played with Tibor & Lumia yet, but I get the feeling it could become my favorite Guildpact creature..

Gigadrowse: one of the best replicate spells. I had a game where i payed UUUUUUU, and triggered gelectrode 7 times, and attacked with a 14/4 dragonaurs for 21 in a turn.

JUDGE! You don't play replicate copies.. they are just added to the stack. So a Gigigigagigadrowse still only triggers the Dragonauts and the Gelectrode once (for the original spell)

I like the Chronarch (hell, i've always had a thing for Anarchist and Scrivener and this is their lovechild)

Schmizotivate: I think this is definately solid.. helps a 1/1 kill a 7/7!!

How does it do that? You did read that it gives the other creature -4/-0 and not -0/-4? I still think it's a stunning card for letting a 1/1 block an 4/5 and not die.

I would totally play the Flectomancer, but you're right about the T&L being in the way. I still think the ability makes up for it.

 

[Limited]

@jorael: Hunted Phantasm with Tibor & Lumia... nice!

 

[Force of Will Smith]

yeah hypervolt isnt all that great. Its used to save a creature from losing the tim ability due to say direct damage or a kill spell.. but if your opponent has those in the first place, they could target the creature the auras actually going to..

i think the curio idea could be really cool, but if youre doing that.. id make it non t2, and throw in some kobolds, furious assault/kyren negotiations, and the signets..

turn 1: mountain
turn 2: island, signet
turn 3: mountain, kyren neg
turn 4: curio, inf damage

plus you need some acceleration to run the dismissers..
you may also want to consider trusted advisor with the new izzet chronarch+ an extra turn spell for infinite turns..
or some of the cheaper bounce creatures like man-o-war

you could also use the new 187-land stealer, and sac your land before they get it..
so each turn you play him, gain 1-2 life from zuran orb/claws of gix, lose no land, and destroy one of theirs

also since the replicate spells dont trigger the dragonauts or others.. train of thought isnt a good idea, and the red damage one is cut..

would cheap buyback spells be good?? you could cast whim of volrath for 2U
to change tumor text to say, when you cast a blue spell deal 1 damage, so that a single spell (like whim) would trigger both..

so youd have a 2U:deal 1 damage to each creature other than X-1 of yours
shattering pulse and whim are the only cost effective buyback spells..
but shattering could easily replace shattering spree..
i imagine being able 2 kill 2 artifacts a turn would be really good as well..

 

[Force of Will Smith]

Instants (25):
4 lightning bolt
3 condescend
3 mana leak
3 Electrolyze
2 Shattering Pulse
2 Whim of Volrath
2 Gigadrowse
2 Leap of flame
2 Schmizotivate
2 Invoke the firemind

Creatures (16):
3 flametongue kavu
3 Ogre Savant
2 Wee Dragonauts
2 Gelectrode
2 Tibor and Lumia
2 Razorfin hunter
2 Izzet Chronarch


4 Izzet Signet



I tried to cut a lot but im still 5 over.. i want to run 20 lands with 4 signets..

ideally youd want

turn 1: mountain, (holding bolt)
turn 2: island (holding mana leak/condescend or play signet/merfolk)
turn 3: land, (electrolyze, or schizmo an attacker) or play tibor, or flametongue
turn 4: land, chronarch, ogre or cast buyback to kill all creatures you dont control.

 

[Gizmo]

Not playing the infinite Guildmage loop?

 

[Force of Will Smith]

you mean the shouldn't really work and 8/10 people agree it doesnt, soon to be erratta'd combo? nope

lava+desperate ritual costs 2R, adds RRR (but only after its no longer able to be copied), which requires an additional 2R to copy it since the red isnt in your pool..
the second copy goes off, but youd still need another 2R to trigger it again..

the only way it would work is to pay lava with multiple desperate rituals on it, accounting for the +2R youd need each time..

i really dont see how this combo has made it this far.. logically when you think about it, you cant use the mana from a spell to use an ability before its actually gone off..



2R+2R
spell goes off adding adding RRR when after resolving (requires another 2R to copy)

the only way i can see it working is casting 2R for desperate which adds RRR paying 2R to copy it,

then casting a different lava spike+ritual and an additional 2R to copy it..
too bad spike is a sorcery..

and 12 mana for an infinite is hardly worth it.


besides, from the group of about 13 ppl i play with, t2 tourney people, oldskool vintage, they all say its complete crap. Rosewater even disagrees with other judges..

 

[Limited]

No, this is how it works

5 mountain, Izzet Guildmage in play.
Play Lava Spike with a spliced Desperate Ritual (later referred to as the Lava Spike+)
With that on the stack, play Desperate Ritual and let it resolve
With the three mana from the Desperate Ritual, make a copy of the Lava Spike+
Let the copy resolve, dealing three damage and giving you three mana.
Use the mana to make a copy of the original Lava Spike+.
Repeat the previous two steps.

I don't think its broken enough that it will warrant errata.
And where does Rosewater disagree? Link?

 

[Force of Will Smith]

the only problem with that, is you're using the in play triggered ability of the mage to copy the spell before the RRR is actually added.so youre paying 2R+2R to play a spike and copy it. when you pay the 2R to copy it, to the guildmage its only a spell with no effects and no abilities. It hasnt gone off yet.

its like casting a creature spell, then casting an instant that says, gain 1 life for each creature in play, before it hits play. Or say you cast an instant like lava axe. Youd have to cast fork targeting the spell before it actually goes off.
If you cast lava spike, let it resolve, dealing the 5 damage, then paying 1U, nothing would happen unless you had cast another burn spell before to copy it.

once the spike+ is copied, it adds the RRR to your pool yes, but at that point its no longer a legal target for the first time, it would only work to copy it a second time, at which youd still have to pay the RRR.

 

[Force of Will Smith]

i think i know where the discrepancy comes into play. Its the fact that you are trying to copy a spell that is not on the stack, but has already resolved. If the izzet says, copy target sorcery that has been played this turn, then the way you described would work.

5 mountain, Izzet Guildmage in play.
Play Lava Spike with a spliced Desperate Ritual (later referred to as the Lava Spike+)
With that on the stack, play Desperate Ritual and let it resolve
With the three mana from the Desperate Ritual, make a copy of the Lava Spike+
Let the copy resolve, dealing three damage and giving you three mana.
Use the mana to make a copy of the original Lava Spike+.
Repeat the previous two steps.

If you played Spike+, then a desperate. If you let the desperate resolve then so would the Spike+, leaving you with no targets.

If you played a separate desparate ritual and let it resolve without letting spike+ resolve then you're attempting to split the stack in two. Its always been last in first out.
letting the copy resolve first would do nothing and deal a measly 6.

so youre paying 2R to let your spike+ resolve.
Resolve means that you're intending to play the spell unaltered from that point. Doing so would disallow you to target it or anything. However it would give you mana.


I refer you to rule :
503.12 - An effect that instructs a player to "play a copy" of an object
follows the rules for playing spells and abilities, except that the copy
is played while another spell or ability is resolving. Playing a copy
of a nonland object follows steps in Rule 409.1a through
Rule 409.1h, "Playing Spells and Activated Abilities," then the copy
becomes played. [CompRules 2003/10/01]


the key here is "while another spell or ability is resolving" meaning that the RRR hasnt resolved and therefore cant be used to copy.


I think the problem is you're using mana that you arent allotted. I think the following actually does work after comparing some rulings. But not in the way you described.


409 - Playing Spells and Activated Abilities
409.1a - The player announces that he or she is playing the spell or
activated ability. It moves from the zone it's in to the stack and
remains there until it's countered or resolves. In the case of spells,
the physical card goes onto the stack. In the case of activated
abilities, the ability goes onto the stack without any card associated
with it. Each spell has all the characteristics of the card associated
with it. Each activated ability on the stack has the text of the ability
that created it, and no other characteristics. The controller of a spell
is the player who played the spell. The controller of an activated
ability is the player who played the ability. [CompRules 2005/10/01]
409.1i - Once the steps described in Rule 409.1a through Rule 409.1h are
completed, the spell or ability becomes played. Any abilities that
trigger on a spell or ability being played or put onto the stack trigger
at this time. The spell or ability's controller gets priority.
[CompRules 2003/10/01]


you announce youre playing the lavaspike, at the same time you splice ritual onto it,adding the text to the spell. Lavaspike goes on the stack.If your opponent chooses not to counter it. No one has taken any damage, no mana added. Then you specify that you are using the guildmage to put a copy of that spell_A on the stack.
Then in 409.i "Once the steps described in Rule 409.1a through Rule 409.1h are completed,the spell or ability becomes played. If you want it to infinite


you pay R+1R to make lava+. You pay an additional 2R to copy it.
The first one resolves giving you RRR. You must use that to target the "copy" of the first.

3 damage, add RRR,
3 damage, add RRR (pay RRR from first one)

Thats the only way it works. I think if anyone tries this on me, i'm going to have to make them explain exactly what they're doing, otherwise no deal .

Well that is cool, perhaps i might run it, but im not sure its worth the irritation of explaining it to others..

 

[Jigglypuff]

If you played Spike+, then a desperate. If you let the desperate resolve then so would the Spike+, leaving you with no targets.

Wrong. After the Desperate Ritual resolves, both players have to pass priority before the Lava Spike+ resolves.

If you played a separate desparate ritual and let it resolve without letting spike+ resolve then you're attempting to split the stack in two. Its always been last in first out.
letting the copy resolve first would do nothing and deal a measly 6.

You're doing no such thing. See above answer.

so youre paying 2R to let your spike+ resolve.
Resolve means that you're intending to play the spell unaltered from that point. Doing so would disallow you to target it or anything. However it would give you mana.

Correct.

I refer you to rule :
503.12 - An effect that instructs a player to "play a copy" of an object
follows the rules for playing spells and abilities, except that the copy
is played while another spell or ability is resolving. Playing a copy
of a nonland object follows steps in Rule 409.1a through
Rule 409.1h, "Playing Spells and Activated Abilities," then the copy
becomes played. [CompRules 2003/10/01]


the key here is "while another spell or ability is resolving" meaning that the RRR hasnt resolved and therefore cant be used to copy.

Wrong. That means the copy of the object is placed on the stack as part of the resolution of the spell or ability that is creating the copy.

..snip some stuff that I can't understand...

Here's how this combo works.

1) With 5 mountains and the Guildmage in play, you announce the Lava Spike with a spliced Desperate Ritual, tapping three Mountains to pay for it. (hereafter referred to as "Lava Ritual")
2) You gain priority again and you play the Desperate Ritual, tapping your last two Mountains to pay for it.
3) Assuming no responses, you let the Ritual resolve, adding RRR to your man pool.
4) You gain priority again and you play the Izzet Guildmage's ability (using the RRR gained from the Ritual) targeting the Lava Ritual still on the stack.
5) As part of the resolution for the Guildmage's ability, you place a copy of the Lava Ritual on the stack. (hereafter referred to as "Lava Ritual Copy")
6) Again assuming no responses, you let the Lava Ritual Copy resolve, dealing 3 damage to a player, and adding RRR to your pool.
7) You then repeat steps 4 through 7.

(- Steve -)

 

[Limited]

I refer you to rule :
503.12 - An effect that instructs a player to "play a copy" of an object
follows the rules for playing spells and abilities, except that the copy
is played while another spell or ability is resolving. Playing a copy
of a nonland object follows steps in Rule 409.1a through
Rule 409.1h, "Playing Spells and Activated Abilities," then the copy
becomes played. [CompRules 2003/10/01]

the key here is "while another spell or ability is resolving" meaning that the RRR hasnt resolved and therefore cant be used to copy.

the "while another spell or ability is resolving" refers to the strange situation in which you are choosing modes, targets and additional costs for a spell (aka playing it) but you are doing this not when you have priority and nothing else is 'happening' at that time (which is the case when playing a spell) but you are doing this as part of the resolvement of another spell/ability, namely the one providing the copy.
So, when playing an spell like Lava Spike, you need to have priority which means nothing else is resolving (during resolvement, no player has priority).
But, when using the Izzet Guildmage's copy ability, you are playing the copy during the resolvement of the Izzet's ability. This means that after playing the copy, no player receives priority just yet. First the spell/ability that was making the copy has to resolve completely (which in case of the Izzet is pretty much right after the copy has been played).

I don't really follow your explanation of what is happening, but I think you have (some) misconception about one or more of the following concepts:

Playing: When you receive priority, you may choose to play a spell. You do this by choosing mode, targets, paying mana cost and paying additional costs (Like Splice and Replicate. After all this is done, the spell (or ability) is put on the stack and is considered played.

Resolving: When both players pas priority, the last effect to be played (added to the stack) is removed from the stack and it's effects are applied. So, the damage resolves, the mana is added, the creature is destroyed etc. After this one ability/spell completely resolves, state-based effects are checked (is a player dead, has a creature had lethal damage etc). Then triggered abilities are put on the stack (the creature that was killed might trigger something like Fecundity or Gravepact) and then the Active Player gets priority again.
This happens every time, so between everything on the stack, there is a window of opportunity for both players to play new spells/abilities.

I hope this clarifies it some..

 

[Gizmo]

It works, you just need to be able to cast Spike/Ritual and have R1 spare to cast the Ritual to gain RRR to use the Guildmage while the Spike/Ritual is still on the stack. Once you've done that each copy resolves to give you RRR to target the original spell again.

1. I have RRRRR mana.
2. Cast Spike splicing Ritual, I Have RR mana left.
3. Cast Ritual. I have no mana.
4. Ritual resolves, I have RRR mana.
5. Activate Guildmage targeting Spike/Ritual, I have no mana
6. Copy of Spike/Ritual resolves, opponent takes 3 damage, I have RRR mana. Repeat from 5.

Easy peasy.

If 8/10 people say it doesnt work then 8/10 people dont know the rules, but then we knew that anyway.