Broken for replenish

I

Istanbul

Guest
Urza's Saga, Urza's Legacy, and Urza's Destiny have MORE than their fair share of BROKEN cards. Not powerful, broken. There IS a difference.

THAT makes them bad sets. When many of the rares are 'I win' cards (how often has an opponent produced a Morphling, cast Replenish, played Academy pre-banning, used Bargain, and you've still won?), when many that aren't I-Win cards are still grossly overpowered (Grim Monolith, anyone?), that makes them bad sets.

Oh, and as for your Morphling solution? Okay, I'll pay a blue and make Morphling untargetable in response, Terror/Swords no longer has a legal target and is countered. If Morphling couldn't make itself untargetable, it wouldn't be half the menace it is.
 
I

Istanbul

Guest
I actually did the math on what Morphling and Masticore OUGHT to cost to cast. Here we go!

MORPHLING
---------
Blue pays 3U for a 3/3 creature with no special abilities.
Add the activated ability to fly: +1
Add the ability to untap itself: +U
Add the ability to become untargetable: +U
Add the flowstone ability, both ways: +1 (we'll be generous)

Total casting cost for Morphling: 5UUU

MASTICORE
---------
Artifacts are usually more expensive; 6 for a 4/4.
Add the ability to regenerate: +1
Add the ability to ping freely: +2
Restrict pinging to creatures: -1
Discard during upkeep to keep it alive: -1

Total casting cost for a Masticore: 7

Just something to think about.
 
M

Multani

Guest
Tag Guard

No Spidy, I meant Terror. I don't care about tournaments.
I'm strictly casual.
Ok, Isty, so Morphling is untargetable.
Then I'll use mass destruction.
And if that doesn't work, I'll kill it the old fashion way... in an attack or defense phase using creatures.
No creature is invincible.

I don't get it. Urza Block is a great oppurtunity for people to get powerful cards. I think it's the few cards like Replenish that you make a judgement of an entire block!
Take Necro Decks. Would you say that Ice Age was a bad block because of a few power cards like Necro and Zuran Orb?

I'm not trying to change anyone's views of the Urza Block.
I just got a little ticked off at people because they blamed a good block on a bad and broken card. :(
 
I

Istanbul

Guest
Mass destruction? Sure, use it against my BLUE deck. You know. The one with all the COUNTERMAGIC in it.

As for killing it with creatures...I actually did the math.
This is how a Morphling works.
Attack with Morphling, giving it flying if necessary.
Pump to a 5/1 before damage goes on the stack.
Once damage is on the stack, pump it on the back end.
This makes Morphling a 5/X creature, where X could very well be over 10.

As such, the only creatures that can even stand UP to Morphling are anything with flying and 6 toughness (Avatar of Will and...um...uh...) and Fog Bank.

Morphling mostly makes it into Draw-Go decks. Draw-Go decks don't cast Morphling until they'll have 4 or 5 mana left over after casting it (to protect it), and then keep you from doing anything to it with their countermagic.
 
Y

Y The Alien

Guest
Tag Guard

I say that Ice Age was a bad block becuase it didn't have ENOUGH cards like Zuran Orb and such. Each block should have a fair amount of cards that get good decks built around them. Ever seen a deck built around Caribou Range. Ice Age had so many absolutely terrible rares the the power of one of the best cards in Magic, Necropotence, did not unbalance the whole set. Now, don't think that's how I want a set designed, mind you. You can't just balance out the broken with the crap rares. You have to keep it fair, make cards that are simply GOOD, not broken or totally horrible. Now, lets take Urza's Saga. The biggest playtesting farce in Magic since Alpha. A freakin free Timetwister?! Now, I can ALMOST see how they missed Tolarian Academy, as it's really only good in the ultra-gimmicky Mind over Mana deck. Morphling....jesus. Blue gets 3U 3/3's so a 3/3 with 5 abilities should only cost one more? I don't think so. And Multani, if Mophling was that easy to kill, nobody would play it. Blue will just counter mass destruction.

However, there are also the cards in there that have fair decks designed around them. Enchantress (post-earthcraft, of course) is one of the coolest decks to play I have used, as well as being the only combo deck that doesn't leave a dirty taste in your mouth after you win :). Urza's Destiny is perhaps even more damaging then Saga, as it gave rise to the two evil, uber-dominant decktypes in Type 2 today, Replenish/Bargain. Simply imagine the Standard scene if the designers had simply deleted Yawgmoth's Bargain and Replenish. It would be a whole lot more innovative, I guarantee. Now, the exception, in my opinion, to the brokenness of the block, is Urza's Legacy. Granted, there was the whole Memory Jar fiasco, but imagine the set without Jar. Are there any truly broken cards in the entire set, sans Jar? Not really. There are some cool Legends, Multani (heh, is that why you like Urza Block?) and Radiant, remakes of some powerful old cards (Nekraatal and Ring of Gix), great sideboard cards (Defense Grid), weird cards (Anthroplasm and Might of Oaks). In fact, if every set from here on out was designed like Urza's Legacy, with some cards that become deck staples, some cards that get decks built around them, one or no broken cards, lots of cool cards, and game altering effects like Planar Collapse and Impending Disaster, I would be very happy. Sure, there were some lame cards, like Beast of Burden, but even that's cool with stuff like Deranged Hermit.

BTW, I got a Caribou Range and a Hall of Mists as my rares for the only Ice Age packs I ever bought. Still haven't managed to get an Academy or Spiral. I do have a Bargain and two Replenishes though.
 
I

Istanbul

Guest
I've done a count of the older blocks. And unless you count stuff like Legends, there IS NO BLOCK that is as broken as Urza's Block. Ice Age block had Necro, Zorb, Force of Will, and...um...Kjeldoran Outpost, kinda...and that's it.

I listed ELEVEN cards, and that's just what came off the top of my head, in Urza's Block that are not just strong, but broken. (And Necro isn't as broken as Y. Bargain is!)
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
Well, there`s a hell of a lot to talk about here.

1. Urza Block was a very enjoyable environment, a little slow perhaps, but otherwise good. It`s main problem was each set created a new stupod combo deck, but once those few cards were banned Urza can be seen to have created a fine bunch of cards. Destiniy gave us some HUGE spells, like Masticore, Treachery, Negator etc. In fact I would go so far as to say the current T2 environment is defined entirely by the cards from Destiny.
Bargain is not a broken card. The only broken card still in T2 today is Academy Rector, but even then it`s dependence on something to kill it with means that it is weak enough to not ban.

2. Replenish IS NOT BROKEN. It took a while for people to see the Tangle Wire was good, but once that happened Replenish took a dive. It is now simply a competitive deck, but not broken, not by any means. I can understand that Replenish is going to be the sort of deck that is utterly unpleasant to play against if you aren`t a killer tourney player/deck yourself - it will simply and without any difficulty demolish people who aren`t preparing for it. But I would hesitate to call it broken. Only 1 of the Top-8 US Nationals decks were Replenish, 0 of the UK Top-8 decks were.
That doesn`t sound broken to me.
It sounds crap.

3. Re: Istanbul`s completely bollocks estimate of Morphling`s true casting cost.

"Blue pays 3U for a 3/3 creature with no special abilities."
(Since when? Does Phantom Monster mean anything to you? Blue gets a 3/3 flyer for U3, just like Green gets a 4/4 monsters for G3, and White gets a 2/2 with some janky ability for W3)

"Add the activated ability to fly: +1"
(Nah, it gets this for free because it`s blue)

"Add the ability to untap itself: +U"
(minor advantage, I don`t think it really adds up to added cost at all. If it were commmon I would agree, but Morphling is a rare and so abilities such as Untap, mostly useful in Limited formats, will not be taken into account so much)

"Add the ability to become untargetable: +U"
(Certainly)

"Add the flowstone ability, both ways: +1"
(Fine, again a good ability. Might even be worth a U, but that it also has to pay to fly means I`ll stick with +1)

My total casting cost for Morphling: 4UU
(A figure most people would agree with)

Morphling is undercosted, but not broken. There are only two broken creatures - Academy Rector and Hypnotic Spectre (and Speccy probably isn`t broken, just horrendously unfair)

4. Ice Age block was a very good set, slightly inert playstyles but the cards were phenomenal. Thawing Glaciers? Pump Knights? Damage Lands? And that`s not mentioning staples like Necro, FoWill, Outpost, Stormbind, Blinky, Ivory Gargoyle, 'Haups, etc...
I agree that the set DID drop off sharply towards the Grizzled Wolverine end of the quality curve, but the good cards in IA/AL/HL were perfectly balanced.

5. "Ever seen a deck built around Caribou Range?"
Yes - possibly the best deck ever built.
:)
Counter-Moose:
http://members.tripod.co.uk/candiman/archiven1.htm
For six months this deck NEVER missed Top-4 at a tourney, won 60% of all events entered into, and boosted it`s owner`s standard ranking to 2013 (which is how you know that it wasn`t beating scrubs, but members of the UK Worlds team week-in, week-out).
Nuff said.
And an inspiration to all those who build decks with bad cards - sometimes they turn out good.

6."Hey, let's make it easier for Replenish decks to fill their graveyard! Poof...Foil! How about another control enchantment? Poof...Rystic Deluge! How about some defense against fast creature decks? Poof...Overburden! Land destruction? Poof...Sheltering Prayers!"

*Foil - useless in Replenish, doesn`t need it. Not as good as Counterspell or Miscalculate or Lilting Refrain.
*Rhystic Deluge - doesn`t need it, it costs U2, same as *Attunement. Replenish only wants cards that cost 2 or less.
*Overburden - Interesting choice, why is this better than Seal of Removal? Answer: it isn`t.
*Sheltering Prayers - does nothing against the Tangle Wires and `Geddons that people are playing. Stops Port, though, and that IS a big thing. SB probably, maybe one in maindeck.
*Rhystic Scrying - the only reason they are using Frantic Search is because it untaps land. This will never go near Replenish. Attunement does the same thing, but for less and with Buyback.

[Edited by Gizmo on June 12th, 2000 at 11:34 PM]
 
M

Multani

Guest
Tag Guard

Finally!!! Someone who appreciates Urza and Ice Age Block.
To all those Urza haters out there, EAT THIS!!!!
:D
 
L

Lythand

Guest
Well lets consider this. It isnt really replenish that makes it broken. Its the Combo of cards with Replenish that make it broken. Like Oppalessance/Parallax wave and Parallax tide. But either way you just have to be ready to play against Replenish. If you get beat by it, come up with a way to beat it. You can really put a serious hurting on replenish by siding in a Quash or a Scour. Its easy for us to say and deck/ card/ or set is broken. If we get beat buy it and we dont figure out a way to stop it, we just lable it broken. Dont put the blame on a card cause you cant beat it. There are ways to beat replenish. Replenish is not the only deck out there dominating the fields. Has anyone seen anything on Trinity Green. Sure if Replenish beat my ass all the time I would say its broken. But I can beat it with side board.

Would it be right for me to say that Gaea's Cradle is just way too broken and it kicks my ass cause I dont have a way to stop its use. No it wouldnt. You just have to be ready to deal with the enviroment. Replenish and Morphling wont be that great once it rotates out. But whos to say something elso wont take its place. Something always does.

Tangle wire seems to be making a rise.
 
T

theorgg

Guest
DUDE! I love that deck. it has "casual" written all over it. I'm BEGGING you, wright a strategy artical telling us how to use that deck. it's sooo cool! tap 8, PULL!:KAPOW!! there goes tradewin. 8,PULL!:KAPOW!! see ya, serra baby. BWAHAHAHA!

comon, wright it for us, please?

oh--and on the morphling issue- a 1/3 in blue costs 1U, one that untaps costs 2U, making it's cost 5UU. still reasonable, I think.

six for 'bator? sounds perfect. 4/4 for 5, not 6. 4/6 for six.

==========
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
8,brace: KAPOW!! there goes his dildoe of a mouth!
8, brace: KAPOW!! there he goes! die, you Nasty 'bator!
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Man, did this thread heat up fast...

Multani, can you guess the card I thought you trying to get rid of with the Terror and StP? :) You mentioned them both in that original post so I just got stuck on that one. Sorry...
 

TomB

Administrator
Staff member
Actually, there's just a couple things I'd like to point out. The first is: Gizmo, I think the point Lythand was trying to make is that many of the cards in Prophecy seem custom made for Replenish. That there are as many good, or better, cards out there just makes them "I win more" cards. All they do is make it easier for someone to switch in a variation and avoid that dirty "Dojo Deck" feeling.

Secondly, I think it would be wrong to ban Replenish (no surprise there, eh? ;)). This ties in to what I've said all along, that, given enough time to deal with it, players WILL find ways to beat supposedly broken cards. Sure, Replenish is still a strong archtype, but is it unbeatable?

From what I've read here, I'd say no.

On Urza's block,
Urza Block was a very enjoyable environment, a little slow perhaps, but otherwise good. It`s main problem was each set created a new stupod combo deck, but once those few cards were banned Urza can be seen to have created a fine bunch of cards. Destiniy gave us some HUGE spells, like Masticore, Treachery, Negator etc. In fact I would go so far as to say the current T2 environment is defined entirely by the cards from Destiny.
What exactly are you saying when you state that an environment got enjoyable once a few cards got banned? I thought these blocks were DESIGNED to go together. Why should you have to ban cards from the Block? And you're right, Destiny does have some HUGE spells. Currently, outside of the Rebel thing, it DOES define the T2 environment.

Is this a good thing?

Especially when the point you're argueing is that Urza's block isn't the most broken, overpowered group of cards ever produced?

:confused:

As far as the older sets go, I think Arabian Nights was fairly broken too. Any set that has a card like Rukh Egg in a common slot HAS to be broken! Legends was a lot like Urza's Saga, in that the good cards were very good, while the chaff was nothing more than birdcage liner. The only difference is the good Urza's stuff is about a thousand times better than any of the Legends cards. IA/AL/HL doesn't even begin to compare to Urza's block. Ice Age was nowhere near as powerful as Saga, Alliances was comparable to Destiny but not as good, and Homelands, well, was Homelands. I liked Serrated Arrows and Eron The Relentless, and, of course, Autumn Willow, but the rest? Yeesh! Legacy, on the other hand, was excellent.

Oh, and I've killed Morphlings before. They're not invincible. :D
 
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