All Cards Errata'd because of 6th Edition's rules

Do you agree with errata for the listed cards?

  • Yes, I agree that some of the cards needed errata for game balance.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes, I agree some of the cards needed errata to retain the card's original intent.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, the cards were more powerful and worth using finally.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, the cards were supposed to change because of the way Wizards set up the 6th Edition rules.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
L

Lotus Mox

Guest
BTW errataing Illusions of Grandeur, would not change the way it was intended to work, it would only change the way Donate was intended to work.
What would have been the point in printing Donate if you aren't allowed to Donate unwanted things to your opponent?

The broken part of Trix was not the Illusions/Donate combo, it was the card-advantage engine Necropotence. If they had banned Illusions/Donate the next Necro-fueled combo would have stepped in it's place.

And I can't believe people still think that Dark ritual isn't broken!

This is one of the most broken mana-acceleration cards in magic:

Black Lotus 0
Artifact
T, sac: add 3 mana of any color to your mana pool

Pretty close to DR if you ask me.

back to topic, I think erratas because of rules change are absolutely neccessary, or else many cards don't work at all, for instance spells which affect interrupts would be unplayable, or some cards wouldn't work how they were intended to, e.g. Phyrexian Devourer, Waylay etc.

I think the way Waylay got errataed is okay, I don't really see the point how removing the tokens during Upkeep is different from being able to cast it only during combat, as the functionality is the same, becuase combat is the only phase where you could realistically need the 2/2 knights.
The only reason the errata killed WW is that WotC was too lazy to check how all the cards would work with 6E rules, and forgot to errata them with the release of 6E.
 
C

Chaos Turtle

Guest
The Waylay errata prevented perfectly acceptable non-intentional uses of the card. For example, a monored player has killed all of your critters, making your Worship useless, and has just played Shock to finish you off. Well, surprise Mr. Burnyouout, I have some creatures after all. (There are others, but this was my favorite.)

Getting three instant creatures isn't always about combat, you know.

As far as Illusions of Grandeur goes, I want to clarify that I don't think it needed errata. I did (at one point, before the disastrous banning of Dark Ritual) suggest errata, as an alternative to banning it outright, but I am delighted that two crappy cards came together to form the basis for a dominant deck. I'm unhappy with how the issue was handled for a long time, but that's a different topic altogether.

My point in mentioning it was that Waylay's unorthodox use was nothing compared to Illusions's.

On Dark Ritual vs. Black Lotus. Please.

Mox Emerald
0
Artifact
Tap: Add G to your mana pool.

Pretty close to Llanowar Elves if you ask me. :rolleyes:

Totally different. A Ritual costs one mana of a specific color and gives you 3 mana of the same color, which you must use right away. Granted, in Type I it hardly makes a difference, since Lotus (classically, anyway) went to pay for JUZAM!!!, but otherwise there's no comparing the two.
 

TomB

Administrator
Staff member
Is Rod Serling hanging around here somewhere?!? :eek:

CT, you're saying you didn't like the way they handled Waylay? Or the Trix thing?

Wow. I never realized. Damn. :eek:

Anyway, and on topic, I agree with Dune Echo 100%. I have to admit though, that I smell the scent of deceased equine in the air. The rulings on most of the cards mentioned are, like, 2 years old now, and while most of the cards you've mentioned are still eligible for play in Extended they'd totally unbalance things if the errata were removed, and it would likely prompt the company to initiate another change to the Extended card pool, as well as restricting the above mentioned cards for T1 play (well, most of them anyway).

Ain't gonna happen folks...

You know, our discontent over this very issue was the catalyst for the formation of the CPA in the first place. Are you feeling a bit nostalgic Dune? Or are you ready to go to the mattresses over the whole "Rack/Vise" thing?

rakso will be so happy... ;)
 
L

Lotus Mox

Guest
CT, What about these:

Grey Lotus 1
Artifact
T,sac: add 3 mana of any color to your mana pool

This one's nearly Dark Ritual (in mono-black of course), and IMO still broken.

Expensive Mox Emerald 1
Artifact
T: add G to your mana pool

A 1cc Mox is still at least two times better than the Elves.
Why do you think the Elves don't have haste?

About Waylay I see your point, but Waylay wasn't intended as a Worship protector (I think Defender of Order is better anyway), it is in first place a combat trick, so the functionality is nearly the same. IMO The errata is fine as it is.
Although I would like Waylay to be errataed like Thawing Glaciers :).

My Waylay 2W
Instant
Put three 2/2 White Knight creature tokens into play.
If it's the end phase remove them from the game. Otherwise remove them from the game at end of turn.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
I was going to mention what Chaos Turtle said about other uses of Waylay, but Lotus Mox said "realistically use" so I figured I wouldn't bother. I mean, how many people DO put in Waylay so they can gain life as the main use of the card (or do whatever)?

TomB: I was thinking the same thing and I was remembering my heated argument with whats-his-name from the Dojo boards about the improvement of 6th rules. Do any of the old-timers remember that? It was kinda funny... I should dig up the link when I have the time :D
 
D

Dune Echo

Guest
Actually, if you will all go read the first paragraph of my second post...

Everyone: Before this degenerates into an arguement over what errata such and such cards got and what it should have been, let's just try to stay with the idea of listing cards that have been given errata for 6th Edition and whether or not you agree with giving cards errata or not and why.
Admittedly, I'm smelling a VERY dead horse m'self. :) And admittedly, I did use Waylay in my arguements, but I am try to state my opinion that quite simply, 6th Edition was heralded by the creators of Magic themselves as the next best thing since sliced bread because of the card interactions it was going to create and the rules problems it was going to fix and instead they just tried to fix the rules problems and make the game exactly as it was before, which ended up outraging players on both sides of this arguement (Waylay wasn't the only card altered after 6th Edition came out). Waylay, to me, is just a prime example of false advertising that was 6th Edition. :D

Also, I just wanted to compile a list of cards that got serious errata because of 6th Edition. This was the list so far:
Debt of Loyalty
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Vale
Phyrexian Devourer
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Scorched Ruins
The Rack
Waylay
Truthfully, I play with Waylay's errata, hence I don't use the card because as Chaos Turtle said earlier,
The Waylay errata prevented perfectly acceptable non-intentional uses of the card.
But enough about Waylay, right? Although the errata for the other cards listed (with The Rack as the exception) were designed to stop loopholes in the rules for the cards in what were most likely combo decks and to keep another two Black Lotuses from appearing in everyone's decks, I don't like that before these interactions were found, that the designers said to expect such things and be proud if you found them. Which then of course you know what happened when those particular interactions were found.

P.S. Lotus Mox: SEE?! That errata returns the spirit of the card as well as is simple to understand while losing nothing from the original. I could easily live with that. I actually want to try working Waylay into a Fires type deck.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
6th Edition was heralded by the creators of Magic themselves as the next best thing since sliced bread because of the card interactions it was going to create and the rules problems it was going to fix
I interpret "card interactions" as "searching for counters while on the stack". The search card remains the same, but the use with the stack is new and different.

And it did fix alot of problems: Lifeline interactions being a prime example.
 
Z

Zadok001

Guest
*whack*

Nail that dead horse.

"6th Edition was heralded by the creators of Magic themselves as the next best thing since sliced bread because of the card interactions it was going to create and the rules problems it was going to fix and instead they just tried to fix the rules problems and make the game exactly as it was before, which ended up outraging players on both sides of this arguement (Waylay wasn't the only card altered after 6th Edition came out)."

Well, really, there were the players who only wanted a simpler rule set, like myself. 6th provided that without changing any of the things I already knew inside and out. I'm rather attached to it.

But secondarily, I would say that while 6th did spawn enormous amounts of errata, it DID make the rules easier. And that's kinda the point.
 
C

Chaos Turtle

Guest
TomB: That's right. I didn't like it. My "thanks for nothing" email was posted on The Dojo right after it was announced, so it's like a part of history. (*Chaos Turtle waxes nostalgic about The Dojo.)

It was actually my position for a long time that errata was totaly unnecessary, but I gave in a little (out-of-flavor argument). But the actual errata, I hated.

(and way off in off-topic land)

Lotus Mox: Glad to see you can take a joke. :)
Anyway, the cards you made are unquestionably overpowered, probably broken. Again, the fine line with Ritual lies on the side of the mana requirement and the fact that it gives back the same color, which must be used right away. Very strong? Yes. Broken? No. Black Lotus? Not even comparable.

As long as I'm waxing nostalgic, I'll point out that I actually did support the banning of Dark Ritual and Mana Vault in Extended at the time the ban was issued. Not wholeheartedly, but as better-than-nothing, since I was loathe to see Necro banned. (Yeah, yeah, so sue me.) With the recent rash of bannings though, Dark Ritual is looking pretty tame nowadays with Force of Will ruling the roost. Have you seen the price that little uncommon is fetching on eBay lately? There's a reason for that.

The point is, with longtime favorites Necro and Survival gone, it's time to let Ritual back in. It's (probably) going to be reprinted in Odyssey, so... I imagine DCI will let a season run through without it, to see what develops, before they make any decisions.
 
D

Dune Echo

Guest
Spiderman and Zadok: Oh, I've never disagreed that 6th Edition rules are great. I love them. They are so much more simpler to learn by and to use. I've always liked the new combat tricks, such as Abbey Matron finally becoming more than just a 0/6 Wall for W until end of turn (granted, it's still a horrible card in Constructed). My statement reflected the main points of advertisements. I guess what miffs me most is that they basically inferred that some cards would be weaker and others would be stronger. I wish I could quote this, but I can't find something offhand.

Well, that happened, and they took a way out that outraged a lot of players. What happens in the tournament world DOES effect the casual world. I feel bad if I play a card that I know has errata incorrectly even if others agree with me.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Well, a search card IS stronger in that you can search for a counter and then play it now :p The search card itself hasn't changed, just the way you can use it with the stack now.

Poor horse... :D
 
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