Absolutely insane Ninja idea!!

[TheCasualOblivion]

While at work, I had a weird idea of the new BoK Ninjas making a bad card worthwhile. I'm a little to tired to actually try to build the deck right now, but here it is...

Ninja + Spark Elemental

 

[Oversoul]

How is this insane? Well, how is it any better than the Ornithopter idea I keep hearing about?

 

[Notepad]

I like the attempt at improving the use of a pile of junk. But, yeah, how does Spark Elemental differ any from Raging Goblin in this case? Or any cheap haste critter?

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

Spark Elemental is both dangerous and expendible. Raging Goblin isn't dangerous, and going beyond the 1 drop, creatures become less expendible.

I like Spark Elemental for this, because in most cases, if they block it, I'm also happy.

 

[Mikeymike]

Being that the Elemental's a 3/1 trampler, its inherently more dangerous than the Goblin, but they both share the same weakness of lacking evasion. But you give him evasion, and the ninja's do a very nice job of circumventing the Elemental's drawback, while the ninja's pick up haste every turn for R.

The Ornithopter is nice, but it too needs help to be dangerous, in the form of haste. Lightning Greaves would do nicely.

 

[Oversoul]

That still doesn't bring in any improvement over Ornithopter, which doesn't cost mana and flies (it won't do damage on its own, but that's not what it's there for). Spark Elemental is more damage on its own, but doesn't work particularly well with ninjas...

If I were to use a creature that costed mana alongside ninjas (not that I use ninjas), I would want it to have a CIP ability or something...

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

I still prefer a weenie rush or scary creatures as Ninja partners. Unless you are giving your entire army evasion(which has its own problems, your opponent can attack at will since he isn't going to block) an Ornithopter or 1/1 flyer doesn't help the Ninja hit the turns after it Ninjutsus out. If Ninja of the Deep Hours or Throat Slitter attacks alongside Blastoderm, Man-O-War, and a Spark Elemental, your opponent has some decisions to make.

 

[Oversoul]

If Blastoderm, Man-'O-War, and Spark Elemental are attacking, I know which one is the weak link there...

Anyway, giving your own creature evasion (not something I usually go for to begin with) doesn't have the problem of leaving you defenseless (or it doesn't unless you alpha strike mindlessly on each turn).

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

What I meant was that if all if your creatures have evasion, your opponent may attack with everything every turn, because he knows he's not going to need his stuff during your turn. Minus evasion, your opponent may not attack like he would if all your stuff has it. Just a small wrinkle I've noticed. If you can't block anything, you don't need blockers, and why worry about the backlash after an all out attack if you can't block anything anyway.

 

[Oversoul]

How would your creatures having evasion be a disadvantage? What you are talking about is purely psychological, and elementary at that. I know I'd take evasion over the lack of it any day (except those ones when Hurricane hits and stuff).

 

[Gizmo]

Especially when the creatures that are evading are killing and unsummoning his creatures.

Evasion > rubbish 'quick attackers'.

The best midgame Ninjas (ie they keep you alive for the other Ninjas to later win the game) are the ones that deal with creatures, creating an obvious dichotomy of 'I need him to have potential blockers but not block with them'. Evasion (and the ability to assign it to Ninjas) is a key... either that or tap effects to deactivate creatures, but that only works in the early game when they havent got loads of creatures. If you're going back some then the 1/1 White Shadow creature will be almost broken because so few people use Shadow.

OR use creatures he doesn't WANT to block. A first turn 1/1 Bushido will probably go unblocked or at least cause a chumpblock.

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

You might be right Gizmo. We're thinking different though. I'm thinking aggressive and you're thinking control. I don't think anyone really knows how ninjas are going to work yet. I've been crunching the numbers, and I haven't been able to find the mana or make enough space in 60 cards to really make things work. I'm still trying though. I think the solution lies in dropping the notion of a ninja tribe deck. Ninja inherently require non-ninja creatures.

The numbers are funny, I tested out a deck with 12 Ninja, and it was unreliable, and I just wasn't drawing them enough. So you go to 16, and assuming around 20 land, that leaves 24 other cards, a lot of which need to be creatures to be played before the ninja. Thats not a lot of space, especially for cards to give evasion. You can't really run 20 land, since playing Ninja is mana intensive. Thats more space gone. So you have lets say 25 mana sources, 16 Ninja, and lets say 12-16 non Ninja creatures. That's 53-57 cards. Building a deck that truly is dedicated to Ninja isn't going to be easy.

 

[Notepad]

That still doesn't bring in any improvement over Ornithopter, which doesn't cost mana and flies (it won't do damage on its own, but that's not what it's there for). Spark Elemental is more damage on its own, but doesn't work particularly well with ninjas...

Exactly what I was getting at. If you want evasion, then go evasion. Spark Elemental doesn't really combo well. I like the idea, TCO, but it seems like will fall flat on its face a lot of the time. So, in that sense, it may as well be just another cheap haster.

 

[Notepad]

I think the solution lies in dropping the notion of a ninja tribe deck. Ninja inherently require non-ninja creatures.

By god, I think you've finally nailed it, TCO. That really is it. Ninjas need to be treated more like 187/CIP critters specifically built for a form of beatdown deck (perferably one with at least a little evasion).

A ninja tribe will be weak and slow-tempo. They should just be a few per deck, ala Uktabi and Nekratall. Because really, that's what they average out to.

Sure, they can be used turn after turn, but that is evened out by the negative of them needing special conditions to be at their best.

 

[Gizmo]

They're pretty much the opposite of 187 creatures, because playing them necessitates you pulling back your tempo by returning a creature, whereas 187 enhanced your tempo by making a creature and an effect. Only the Mistblade Shinobi really does anything to support an aggro deck, because it's effect is entirely tempo advantage - the other cards all translate into actual card advantage.

I dont think they work as aggro (not flat out aggro) for that very reason - you're slowing your deck down by keeping playing and replaying them. Every Ninja you play takes time out of your offense by returning a creature. They don't really work as an aggressive force, they work as a card advantage tool for midgame decks that can ensure they get in unblocked, and can protect them from removal.

So in the final analysis of 'How to abuse Ninjas' is the answer 'abuse them by not playing many of them because they arent very good except in small doses'?

 

[Mikeymike]

I'm startnig to think that Ninja-toolbox is the way to go.

Run 4x Higure, who acts as both your ninja-fetcher and an evasion supplier.

Then you can run single (or double) copies of specific control-based ninjas, like the Mistblade, Deep Hours, Okiba-Gang, Skullsnatcher, Throatslitter, and Ink-Eyes. Let's say you run 2 Deep Hours, that gives you 11 ninjas total.

Supplant the ninja-based control elements with 187 creatures that fill the voids in the deck (land fetching, art/ench destruction, etc.). Let's say you run 12 187 creatures, now you are up to 23. That theoretically leaves 13 slots to clean up the rest of the build, which should be plenty.

With potentially very heavy creature-control elements in place, I feel the tempo-loss associated with the ninja mechanic would be largely negated. If they can't keep creatures in play, then it is likely they cannot establish any tempo. The continuous damage of the ninjas finishes the job.

 

[Gizmo]

But that toolbox doesn't have many tools.

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

By god, I think you've finally nailed it, TCO. That really is it. Ninjas need to be treated more like 187/CIP critters specifically built for a form of beatdown deck (perferably one with at least a little evasion).

A ninja tribe will be weak and slow-tempo. They should just be a few per deck, ala Uktabi and Nekratall. Because really, that's what they average out to.

Sure, they can be used turn after turn, but that is evened out by the negative of them needing special conditions to be at their best.

I'm not really convinced it can't be done. I think you can sidestep the tempo lost in gating Ninja instead of instants and sorceries in a deck that attacks every turn. The closest I've come in theory is a VERY heavy creature deck with Ninja replacing cards like Dark Banishing, Unsummon, ect... A Deck with 40 creatures and 20 land, or something like that. The biggest problem I have so far, is that you kind of have a little toolbox with that, and that kind of heads towards a 4 color deck. I don't personally have the land to pull that off right now, since you would really want every creature in the deck to attack. I think a 35-40 creature Ninja beatdown/toolbox could work, but it would cost a pile of money to build for all the nonbasic land and/or Birds of Paradise.

 

[DÛke]

I'm not exactly sure how any of this Toolbox.

Ninjas are not that good, even for casual play. There will not be a such thing as "Ninja beatdown" or "Ninja toolbox," unless the next set provides some bombs for the Ninjas, which is far from likely.

Who knows, maybe the next step is to create "Ninja 1st turn kill" right?...