A Dark Day for Magic

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Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Oversoul: I was being sarcastic; Shabbaman was listing the various changes that have caused people to declare the death of Magic but missed what I consider one of the biggies...

Mooseman said:
Really? The site was formed when the 6th ed rules came out..... sounds like a story for another thread......
The story is around somewhere... basically, there was a group of us on the Dojo forums who debated the merits of the stack and 6th edition changes and how it affected Waylay at the time... I was one of them who said the changes made the rules much cleaner and while Waylay could have been worded better than the way they did it (back then, it was revised to say play only during Combat), it still closed the famous Waylay deck loophole. Others disagreed and the founders of this site banded together to form the Casual Players group so their opinions could be heard by WOTC. They formed the website and since they were a sizable part of the Dojo forums, the forums sort of died. So I came over here. That's why I'm not a founder :)
 

Mooseman

Isengar Tussle
It costs a lot lees to mass produce 100 cards in set then 150 cards in a set.....
Now add land to that 100 cards.... no playtesting (We all know how land works), no big worry about names and artwork.......

All that lowers costs..... then give players 1 less card to booster draft with per pack...... hmmmmm....... it still sucks..... :(


Spidey: That's it? Cool story, but I was hoping for more drama and suspense and .... well...... entertainment...... :D
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
It was eight years ago, it was probably more exciting if you heard it back in 2001 or something... TomB might remember more :)

Plus, I'm not a writer :D
 
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EricBess

Guest
rokapoke said:
How does this lower costs? It doesn't. It increases revenue because a lot of people will just buy more cards to acquire all their playsets. It just dumps on the consumer, that's all.
Actually, the effect is more subtle than that.

Think of it this way - If a set has 120 rares (10th Ed or Timeshifted), then any given rare will appear once in every 120 packs (on average). With 15 "Mythic" rares and a Mythic rare appearing 1 in 8 packs, each Mythic rare appears once in every 120 packs. The normal rares appear one in every 60 packs.

On the surface, the Mythic rare is simply akin to the same rarity as a rare in 10th edition, then, which means that they are trying to stretch an expansion to what a core set would sell (if people were trying to get a set, at any rate).

But the actual affect, again, is more subtle - people won't necessarily buy that because there are only 15 of them and the odds of getting one are significantly lower than getting one of the other rares. By the time I get one of each of the Mythic, I will have 2 each of the rares. By the time I get a full playset, I will have twice as many of the others.

So, what is going to happen? Look at YuGiOh to see. A pack of cards costs around $4.00, right (I actually haven't bought packs in a while, so it might be more). The expected value of the card you pull is going to be less than this (it it weren't, there would be no secondary market), say $3.00. Which means that if you were to buy 100 packs at $4.00 each, on average you could sell the rares for $300 as singletons.

But now, there will be a "glut" on 53 of thos 68 "rare" cards, which means that their value will decrease accordingly. To compensate, the value of the mystic rares will increase by 8 times the amount that the normal rares decrease (because they are found 1 in 8 packs). But if WotC correctly predicts the "chase" rares and makes them a mystic rare, then what would have been a $20 card could become a $160 card, simply because there aren't nearly as many available.

And the impact of this is perceived value. Right now, even the best Magic cards currenly available in packs rarely break the $20 mark. On the other hand, the last 2 YuGiOh packs each had at least one card that sells regularly for over $100.

Even though the odds of pulling that card offsets the value, there is still more perceived value. WotC is hoping that this will translate to more people getting into Magic. It's basically the same reason people play the lottery, even though mathimatically it is a bad investment.
 
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rokapoke

Guest
Very impressive reasoning, EB. I like it (the reasoning, not the concept -- those buggers at WotC are bleeding their customers!).

That said, when pack prices drove up near $4, I was priced out of the market. That started a rapid decline in my interest in the game, except where casual play with friends (e.g. turgy22) or this particular forum is concerned.
 
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EricBess

Guest
I was actually discussing this with a co-worker, who is concerned about this. He theorizes that the typical "serious" player spends a certain amount each year to stay competitative. If those players are put in a position where they have to spend significantly more, they will stop playing the game.

The real question comes down to whether WotC manages to hit a balance where they can afford to lose those players.

The one thing that concerns me is that if they are trying to copy the YuGiOh model, they are missing one thing. In YuGiOh, a typical player can remain fairly competant, if not competative, by purchasing just a few cards each set and updating their existing decks with the "latest tech". Because of Magic's rotation, that isn't possible. It will be interesting to see if Magic can support a YuGiOh rarity scheme.
 
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BigBlue

Guest
I don't have too much to add to this discussion...

I don't buy cards nearly as often as I used to... Maybe 1 box of boosters a year on average over the last 5 years or so... Mainly because I do play MtG w/ my sons still, and I like to have some fresh things to add - plus I'm "supporting" the game... So these changes don't affect me too much, they're all mythic rares to me... :)

I really like the forum games, especially the limited ones, because I always liked limited most of all and in the forums it doesn't cost anything. :)

Getting 10 commons and a land is goofy... but, as someone who is building a booster generator which distributes common colors evenly... let's just say it's perfect! :)

As WotC said, the way the premiums work out, the "Mythic" foils will actually be more common than the mythic rares in comparison with non-mythic rares to non-mythic foils... I never really grasped how they print foils anyways, I would have figured they made foil versions of the same sheets, but with this comment from MaRo, they must do something differently... strange.
 

Mooseman

Isengar Tussle
EB: Doing a little market/business analysis?
The only problem with the Yu Gi Oh model is that the target age is a few years younger than Magic's target age....(YGO has a good bit of parent driven sales and they have disposable income, MTG has mainly player driven sales and they don't have as much disposable income).... That and the cartoon
 

turgy22

Nothing Special
The more I hear about Mythic Rares, the more I like them. I really hope EB is right and the price of some cards shoots up over $100. As I said before, as a casual player, there are no cards that I ever feel like I must have. Therefore, I will never be dishing out $100+ (or $10+, for that matter) for any single card. But I will be pulling some Mythic Rares out of my packs on occasion. And if they're valued as highly as predicted, they're going to buy me a lot of quirky rares and solid uncommons to fill out my decks.
 

Ransac

CPA Trash Man
They're not going to shoot above $100, at least not initially. I can't even imagine that foil Mythic Rares are going to be that high. If Timeshifted foil "rares" didn't shoot up that high, how will these?


Ransac, cpa trash man
 

Killer Joe

New member
The story goes like this: There was some white instant spell that gave you three 2/2 soldier tokens that were supposed to only be in play during your turn and sac'd at the end but someone found a loophole and made it so that you could have them ready for an attack on your next turn. It was equivalent to a white ball lightning. I can't remeber the name of the card now...... :confused:
 
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Modus Pwnens

Guest
Waylay?

On a side note, I seem to be remembering that all mythic rares are foil, but I'm not too sure about that one..
 
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EricBess

Guest
Mooseman - given my position at Upper Deck, this sort of thing gets considered frequently. After all, it is us they are copying ;)

BTW - I'm not convinced they are simply "copying YuGiOh". WoW TCG using "Epic" rares as well. I think most newer Japanese TCGs are done that way as well (though I don't know about Pokemon). Realistically, YuGiOh and WoW are the ones that actually get enough attention from the secondary market to matter.

The real chase cards in WoW are the online content cards and when those are good, then get very valuable. Not sure the exact numbers, though. Don't know how WotC would introduce "online content", but I suppose they could start adding special Avitars, etc. that you can only get if you bust a special card in a pack...

The foil sheet actually has a different layout than the regular sheet. UD made that mistake once with Vs. and if the layouts aren't altered, you get the same pattern of foil rares as your normal rares, which could lead to a box with a lot of duplicates.

Historically, I think WotC has treated all foils as the same rarity, which is why specific foil rares are just as easy to get as specific foil commons. I'm not sure if they will do anything differently for Mythic Rares. Maybe have everything else appear twice on the sheet while the Mythic Rares only appear once?
 
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EricBess

Guest
Ransac said:
They're not going to shoot above $100, at least not initially. I can't even imagine that foil Mythic Rares are going to be that high. If Timeshifted foil "rares" didn't shoot up that high, how will these?
Timeshifted foil rares weren't needed cards.

I was looking at some YuGiOh stuff the other day and there is a card that came out as a common card that was worth a quarter. Later, they printed a "super rare" version of the card and it was worth $25. But as Mooseman pointed out, the target age for YuGiOh is younger. Magic players in general don't care if they are playing with a foil version or a normal version. In fact, most serious Magic players avoid foils because mixing foils with non-foils in a deck can mark it.

IMO - that's why the timeshifed foil rares didn't shoot up that high - every timeshifted card was available somewhere else. I did notice that the value of a timeshifted card was often more than the value of the original common, so even Magic players do want the "premium" version to some degree. But for Magic players, if you can get the same card for either a quarter or $25, you take the quarter. What that means is that the premium version never reaches $25, but is instead maybe $7, because some people might pay $7 instead of the quarter, but no one pays $25.

Mystic Rares, however, are completely different. You can't get a version of them anywhere else. The only thing that is going to keep them from hitting $100 immediately is if no one is willing to pay that much for a Magic card.

It is possible that you are right and that no one will be willing to change their perception of the value of a card, but I'm guessing that you are wrong and that if any of the Mystic Rares are 4-ofs in a good deck, the price will hit well over $100 within a week of launch.
 

Ransac

CPA Trash Man
Killer Joe said:
Sorry, too lazy to read, it's much better to throw in crappy, unresearched opinions around. :)

Spoken like a true Pennsylvanian....


Ransac, cpa trash man
 
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Modus Pwnens

Guest
EricBess said:
In fact, most serious Magic players avoid foils because mixing foils with non-foils in a deck can mark it.
A certain Wafo-Tapa disagrees with you ;)
 
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