5color land destruction

Discussion in 'Casual Decks/Variants/Etc' started by krichaiushii, Nov 19, 2001.

  1. krichaiushii New Member

    This whole 5 color thing is fun... here is my version. The strategy is based on the idea that nonbasic lands are prolific in these decks, and of the five colors, blue is one of the top two in most decks.

    From looking at this first draft, I think I would die quickly to fast decks, but perhaps I am wrong. I have little knowledge of what cards newer than oh, Invasion (set, not block) do, so please explain, as necessary. Thank you.

    Artifact (21)
    4x Fellwar Stone
    4x Mox Diamond
    4x Horn of Greed
    4x Ankh of Mishra
    4x Urza's Bauble
    1x Sol Ring

    Black (18)
    4x Contract from Below
    4x Diabolic Edict
    4x Terror
    4x LimDul's Hex (there is a reason for this, honest)
    1x Demonic Tutor
    1x Yawgmoth's Will

    Blue (18)
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Fact or Fiction
    3x Manowar
    4x Sage Owl
    1x Stroke of Genius
    1x Windfall
    1x Merchant Scroll

    Green (55)
    4x Rancor
    4x Vine Trellis
    4x Spore Frog
    4x Yavimaya Elder
    3x Sylvan Library
    4x Stunted Growth
    4x Plow Under
    4x Thornscape Battlemage
    1x Regrowth
    4x Birds of Paradise
    4x Skyshroud Elite
    4x Skyshroud Elf
    4x Uktabi Orangutan
    2x Scragnoth
    2x Tsunami
    3x Hull Breach (G/R)

    Red (54)
    4x Wildfire Emissary
    4x Kird Ape
    4x Viashino Heretic
    4x Avalanche Riders
    4x Pillage
    4x Lightning Bolt
    4x Incinerate
    3x Price of Progress (or is it Power? - damage taken for each nonbasic land a player controls)
    2x Ruination
    3x Flashfires
    2x Boil
    2x Subterranean Spirit
  2. Dune Echo CPA Founder, Idea Man

    My first reaction to seeing Tsunami: "Holy <bleep>! That card is mad tech!"

    Are you planning on playing Armageddon in white? What are your white cards? And how much land are you planning on running? Also, if you plan on destroying their lands a lot, Fellwar Stone may not be so great. Please finish your deck list, I am loving this idea!
  3. krichaiushii New Member

    I hit the wrong button and posted early. Then I timed out while editing the post. Oink, oink, oink!!!

    To finish off red...
    3x Orcish Squatters
    1x Wheel of Fortune
    1x Fork
    1x Gamble
    4x Pyroblast
    3x Urza's Rage
    1x Obliterate

    White (19)
    4x Disenchant (not enough blue for Dismantling Blow)
    4x Swords to Plowshares
    4x Heavy Ballista
    4x Mother of Runes
    2x Seal of Cleansing
    1x Enlightened Tutor

    Land (72)
    4x Taiga
    4x Badlands
    4x Bayou
    4x City of Brass
    4x Gemstone Mine
    17x Forest
    14x Mountain
    9x Swamp
    6x Island
    6x Plains

    Some card choices seem random because they are. Land punishment/destruction just seemed the way to go. LimDuls Hex and Orcish Squatters make things more painful but may be too much cc-wise.

    Ritual of Subdual?

    More blue hate? I think I need hate that is more broadbased...

    Plus, I am thinking already of creatures I forgot (River Boa and Bog Wraith).

    Post away!
  4. Mikeymike Captain Hiatus

    I'm getting sleepy so this post my not make much sense but...

    I would run Zuran Orbs (I don't think its restricted) and/or Overgrown Estates (Apoc. BGW ench rare - sac a land for 3 life) to counter-act your Ankh damage you'll be doing to yourself. Plus they work very well pre-Price of Progress (you got it right) and are just great in general for 5-Color.

    Other good to great LD cards you missed:
    Ravenous Baboons (dude, you have to play with this card - you ever been to the drive through safari at Great Adventure? This card reminds me of those baboons that rip the trim and wind-shield wipers off of cars - something funny about destructive monkeys)
    Wildfire (This should DEFINITELY be in here, no doubt about it - maybe run a little heftier artifact mana to support it)
    Rain of Salt
    Parallax Tide (for the Ankh combo, and it can save you lands from mass destruction)
    Jokulhaups
    Demolish (from Odyssey, same thing as Pillage except it costs 3R)
    Implode (Planeshift, 4R, unc. Destroy a land and draw a card)
    Dwarven Landslide (Apoc, 3R, common, Destroy a land - Kicker 2R, destroy another land)
    And where is your Balance? ;)

    Then there is this gem of a card:
    Recoup 1R
    Ody Uncommon
    Flashback {3}{R}; Target sorcery card in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn. Its flashback cost is equal to its mana cost. (Mana cost includes color.)

    Which works well with this:
    Catalyst Stone 2
    Ody Rare (but a junk one, you can pick up a 4-pack on ebay for $2-3)
    Flashback costs you pay cost up to {2} less. ; Flashback costs your opponents pay cost {2} more.
    So recouping a Wildfire (for example) would cost 3RRR total.

    And this:
    Earthrift
    Ody. common
    Flashback {5}{R}{R}. ; Destroy target land.
  5. CHA1N5 New Member

    or...

    YAY!


    Good suggestions, Mikey. Especially on the Recoup. When krichaiushii first mentioned that he wasn't familiar with post-Invasion sets, I was sure he wouldn't be aware of this gem.

    krichaiushii : Rather than cover too many individual cards, I'd like to point out that you're not really punishing your opponent for they're shortage of lands. Ankh is a start, but you're right about the fact that an early rush can outrace you.

    Combo and control are going to hate all of your LD, so beatdown is the deck you need to concentrate on fighting. Your best bet, I believe, is to hinder their attacking ability with Propaganda and Collective Restraint. Also, a little-used gem called The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale would be amazing... assuming you can find one ;) Similarly, Maze of Ith would be some good for you... such that, if they eventually fight through Propaganda to swing, you just put that guy back!

    Other ideas:

    Destructive Flow: fits your theme quite nicely, and will be a game-breaker in quite a few situations.

    This seems like junk. If you can get Masticores, there you go. Otherwise, FTK is conspicuously missing from your list.


    This is good for a LOL... but you really should be playing with a serious card, here. Thornscape Apprentice will fill this slot nicely. As will Mogg Fanatic or Granger Guildmage.

    These really should be a card that does something. Play a cantrip that will help your theme... Repulse, for instance. Fire/Ice is another good choice for those wishing to "cheat" and minimize their (usually) Red or (in your case) Blue.


    Okay, so I talked about a bunch of specific cards....

    sue me.


    Keep this 5 discussion coming, guys! Any of you have some game experience with these new decks?


    CHA1N5
  6. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Earth Rift costs 3R to play the first time, BTW.

    Cha1n5, Chains of Mephistopheles doesn't have flavor text, but Mana Chains does. :)
  7. krichaiushii New Member

    Wow... so many comments in so short a time.

    CHA1N5 - I like Heavy Ballista, and as it had but one W in its CC, I opted for it. I'll consider your advice on it. The Bauble and Spore Frog were throw ins. But the Frog might be a little useful. We'll see.

    I like both the Maze of Ith and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, though I doubt I shall ever see the latter (I have the former). On a side note, playing Living Plane with a Tabernacle is silly fun! Add Earthlink for even more nastiness... hmmm... Earthlink...

    Mikeymike - wow. And again wow. Another Pillage? Implode? Rain of Salt? Wildfire? Ravenous Baboons (what about Monstrous Hound?)? And Recoup - with or without Catalyst Stone. Lots of fun stuff you mention.

    Betwixt the two of you, I definitely have to rethink things...

    I'm thinking blue gains Collective Restraint in exchange for the Manowars and a Brainstorm.

    Red gets lots and lots. But definitely Rain of Salt, Implode, Wildfire (no more than 2), Demolish, Recoup, and the Baboons. I've no idea what to pull - I'm thinking maybe cut down on creatures throughout the deck and Pyroclasm/Steam Blast my troubles away... what about those Brawlers?

    Black will see the LimDul's Hexen go away, to be replaced with 2 Earthlink and 2 Destructive Flow (I like that card!).

    Artifacts will pitch the Baubles for somewhat useful things. Catalyst Stones, maybe 2. A Grim Monolith, Basalt Monolith(s)?
    Zuran Orb and maybe Dingus Egg(s)? The Fellwar Stones might have to go - nah. What about Stone Calendar?

    And green, well... Wall of Roots and Tinder Wall. What about Burgeoning?

    White - at the risk of sounding stupid, what is an FTK. And Balance. Woe is me! I forgot the Balance! (and after asking Mikeymike where his was! The horror, the horror!) Martyrs of Korlis to avoid artifact damage? Not reliable enough, methinks. Maybe Glacial Chasm (not white, but a land)?

    But if I pull lots of creatures, maybe a Cataclysm or Wrath of God(s)? I like the Cataclysm's versatility, but the WW in its CC may be bad. Same argument for Wrath of God.

    What else... if I go to either a creature-lite deck, or just one where the creatures have a toughness great than 2, maybe Aether Flash? Better yet, Caltrops. This logic is derived from someone making a comment on these boards about how "creatures with a toughness of 3 die as quickly as those with toughness of 1, so play the 1's, as they have better abilities overall." (I paraphrased). Maybe the RGx creature killer from ... I forget. Anyhow, it affects only creatures, so maybe that one.

    Let's see. If I add the cards so far discussed, and land to support it all that would put the deck at about... 400 cards. Back to the drawing board!

    On a side note, would it be viable to build a 5 color deck containing nothing but hate for other colors? All creatures have protection from a color, and many of the support cards are color hosers. It would be mucho unfriendly, but still plausible, I would think. Go blue heavy for Invoke Predjudice and lots of Sleights and Hacks (and Volrath's Buybackable version, too!) The only drawback I can think of is that most of your creatures will have double colors in their casting costs (like GG for Whirling Dervish, etc).
  8. rkoelsch Angel Boy

    FTK is Flame Tongue Kavu from Planeshift expansion. He is the hot card in type 2 now. At least until control and combo start to be more prominent.
  9. Mikeymike Captain Hiatus

    Expanding on your sidenote
    Its funny you mention Invoke Prejudice in 5-Color. I just picked one up recently and thought 'Man, this thing is a beating in 5C!'

    But how to get it into play besides Academy Rector?
    This calls for cheaters, hmm
    Celestial Dawn (this could be good in 5C I think)
    Show and Tell
    Replenish (but now you've got to get it into the graveyard)
    Temporal Aperature (1 in 200 chance of getting it)
    Tolarian Academy

    On a side note, you've inspired me to start a 5-Color color hoser deck, come comment. It will need help.
  10. CHA1N5 New Member

    I'm replying with the briefness, until Dune finishes his big reply, but I knew that I forgot a card when I was suggesting the Tabernacle:

    Pendrell Mists

    Your blue cards could be almost entirely devoted to making creatures hard to use
    ;)


    Istanbul:

    bah, Sisay swooning over Gerrard. Thanks for the tip, but I'll pass
    ;)


    CHA1N5
  11. Dune Echo CPA Founder, Idea Man

    White (19)
    4 Disenchant (not enough blue for Dismantling Blow) - But you do have enough red to use Orim's Thunder (Apocalypse).
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Heavy Ballista - I agree with CHA1N5 on this, Masticore is better and a beating stick besides. I'm trying to think of a suitable and cheaper replacement, and I'm coming up with a blank.
    4 Mother of Runes - Great card.
    2 Seal of Cleansing - This works well with Enlightened Tutor. I think that you have enough Disenchant effects in the deck along with Hull Breach.
    4 Swords to Plowshares - Excellent removal card.

    Blue (18)
    4 Brainstorm - I think this could be something better, not sure what. A creature perhaps? Sapphire Leech isn't that bad and it flies.
    4 Fact or Fiction - Excellent card drawing.
    3 Man-o'-War - Good card. Can work well with your CIP creatures.
    1 Merchant Scroll - Search is always good. Replace with Mystical Tutor if you can.
    4 Sage Owl - Personally, I think I would play Impulse over this or Fire/Ice. But he can be a decent chump blocker if necessary. Could also be Sapphire Leech if you need a little blocker.
    1 Stroke of Genius - Card drawing is good.
    1 Windfall - This can work really well in your favor if your land destruction kicks off like it should.

    Black (18)
    4 Contract from Below - Pretty much required for any deck. :)
    1 Demonic Tutor - Excellent.
    4 Diabolic Edict - Good, gets rid of Blastoderm/Multani if you get rid of everything else.
    4 Lim-Dûl's Hex - You may want to consider Barbed Wire instead. It's more one-sided, and your opponent is likely to have B available to prevent the damage.
    4 Terror - This is much better as Terminate and you do have a strong red-base.
    1 Yawgmoth's Will - Excellent.

    Red (54)
    4 Avalanche Riders - Excellent.
    2 Boil - All your specific land-based hosers are a great idea. I would love to see these in play.
    3 Flashfires - See Boil.
    1 Fork - This is unrestricted btw. Also, Mirari (Odyssey) might be good in its place.
    1 Gamble - Excellent.
    4 Incinerate - Great burn.
    4 Kird Ape - You have a lot of forests, this can be good.
    4 Lightning Bolt - Excellent burn.
    1 Obliterate - Great control spell. Keeps some of your enchantments alive afterwards too.
    3 Orcish Squatters - These maybe just a little too expensive… Not sure, I'd have to try them.
    4 Pillage - Excellent.
    3 Price of Progress - Excellent.
    4 Pyroblast - Good spell, may want to cut back to just 2 though.
    2 Ruination - Red's Armageddon.
    2 Subterranean Spirit - Not sure about this card.
    3 Urza's Rage - Great burn.
    4 Viashino Heretic - If you need something cheaper, Gorilla Shaman is good.
    4 Wildfire Emissary - Oooh…. Let me know if this thing works well!
    1 Wheel of Fortune - Great card.

    Green (55)
    4 Birds of Paradise - Great.
    4 Plow Under - Evil.
    4 Rancor - Do you have enough creatures to warrant this? Also, if you gain control of the board, is this necessary?
    1 Regrowth - Excellent.
    2 Scragnoth - The jury is still out on this one. Blue bounce is not as big for me, maybe for you.
    4 Skyshroud Elite - Excellent creature.
    4 Skyshroud Elf - If this doesn't work, try Urborg Elf or Utopia Tree.
    4 Spore Frog - Spike Weaver may be better…
    4 Stunted Growth - Again, you're an evil man. :) I like it.
    3 Sylvan Library - Excellent.
    4 Thornscape Battlemage - Excellent.
    2 Tsunami - See comment way above.
    4 Uktabi Orangutan - You really hate artifacts, don't you?
    4 Vine Trellis - Wall of Roots may be better. Tell me what works for you.
    4 Yavimaya Elder - Good.

    Gold (3):
    3 Hull Breach - Excellent. You have a lot of artifact/enchantment removal. Make sure all of it is necessary.

    Artifact (21)
    4 Ankh of Mishra - :) Again, evil.
    4 Fellwar Stone - Excellent.
    4 Horn of Greed - You really do not have a lot of lands, and your opponent is going to hopefully have a lot of cards in hand already, do you really want them to possibly draw more for trying to get back into the game and draw threats against you?
    4 Mox Diamond - You're pretty land light, are you sure about this?
    1 Sol Ring - Excellent.
    4 Urza's Bauble - I would cut these for more lands.

    Land (72)
    4 Taiga
    4 Badlands
    4 Bayou
    4 City of Brass
    4 Gemstone Mine
    17 Forest
    14 Mountain
    9 Swamp
    6 Island
    6 Plains

    I would seriously consider more lands. A deck like your's is a little expensive on the casting cost side and you may want to consider around 90 lands maybe? It works pretty well for my more expensive deck.

    Post your finished version for me please, krichaiushii.
  12. CHA1N5 New Member

    or...

    FORK FACTORY!


    Congratulations to Dune for finding the Marble in the Oatmeal!

    Mirari would be the shiznit for LD! If you can get your hands on these, I bet they will help a lot. I would add an Enlightened Tutor and change your Merchant Scroll to a Mystical to help you find Mirari.


    I couldn't agree more. You're quite land light, by at least 20. I know that we're inching close to a 500 card deck -- :) -- but that comes with the territory. I wouldn't consider dropping the Mox Diamonds, though... I would just play enough lands to accomodate them. 90-100 is a good reference. Some beatdown decks can get away with 75-80, but their mean casting cost is probably 1.3 mana! Yours is 3.5!


    I know that this means cutting some business cards, and I'm right there with you. Try finding some pairs of cards whose function can be replaced by a single card. Orim's Thunder, for instance, might be able to take the place of a Disenchant and a burn spell (or Ballista). Also, look for areas where you have lots of redundancy. Disenchant effects and anti-Island tech are two such areas.


    Don't get me wrong: Disenchants are important... and you're going to want a lot of them to fight opponents' artifact mana. Still, there are some Disenchant-type cards that can cover more than one base. Viz. Thornscape Battlemage.


    On the whole, Dune's suggestions are right on. He has pointed out some cards that could get the ax and some replacements/additions that you'd be well-advised to try.


    CHA1N5
  13. Mundungu grumpier than ever

    I thought that a straight LD deck was taboo in FIVE. I thought I had read about it somewhere. Maybe I'm just wrong.

    Chain or Dune Echo : please enlighten me on that point.
  14. CHA1N5 New Member

    taboo also ta·bu
    n. pl. ta·boos, also ta·bus
    A ban or an inhibition resulting from social custom or emotional aversion.

    A prohibition, especially in Polynesia and other South Pacific islands, excluding something from use, approach, or mention because of its sacred and inviolable nature.
    An object, a word, or an act protected by such a prohibition.

    adj.
    Excluded or forbidden from use, approach, or mention: a taboo subject.

    tr.v. ta·booed, also ta·bued ta·boo·ing, ta·bu·ing ta·boos, ta·bus
    To exclude from use, approach, or mention; place under taboo.

    ___________________________________________

    I'm not sure if taboo is the word you want... there's no one (that I know of) frowning upon the utterance of "Stone Rain" due to it's sacred significance...

    However, I will say that LD as a dedicated strategy is not really a good idea in 5. You know how random LD is as a 60 card strategy, now imagine that x 4.1666. You might go whole games without drawing 1 LD spell. You might draw all LD spells and lose to your opponent's first turn Mogg Fanatic.

    I will say this, though, a splash of LD in 5 is always useful, simply due to the nature of the format and the variety of non-basics that people use. For people building their first 5's, without sets of duals, Ruination and Price of Progress are great cards to combat the 40 dual decks.


    CHA1N5
  15. Mundungu grumpier than ever

    Well we are not in polinesya so we can stick to the common meaning :

    taboo also ta·bu
    n. pl. ta·boos, also ta·bus
    A ban or an inhibition resulting from social custom or emotional aversion.


    as in : is not welcomed in the FIVE community.

    So a LD deck isnt bad taste.... well, I'll sure have a quick look into that soon :) (if not as a major theme, at least for some upsetting sorceries.) :eek:
  16. krichaiushii New Member

    Mundungu -

    I'm banking on the fact that I'll be losing lands (though not as many, hopefully) to my spells too, softening the blow LD brings. Honest. :p

    But I can see your point about LD being unfriendly and also somewhat unpredictable. That's why I am leaning towards direct damage as my back up strategy, what with all the red I'll be packing for my Ruinations, Flashfires, and Boils... :D

    As to my revised deck, I am still piecing together my notes. I should have it up tonight or tomorrow at the latest.

    Happy Thanksgiving.
  17. krichaiushii New Member

    5Color LD (273)

    Artifact (18)
    4x Fellwar Stone
    4x Ankh of Mishra
    4x Barbed Wire
    3x Mirari
    2x Zuran Orb
    1x Sol Ring

    Black (19)
    4x Contract from Below
    4x Diabolic Edict
    4x Bog Wraith
    4x Terminate (B/R)
    1x Demonic Tutor
    1x Yawgmoth’s Will
    1x Demonic Consultation

    Blue (18)
    4x Fact or Fiction
    4x Propaganda
    4x Pendrell Mists
    4x Manowar
    1x Windfall
    1x Mystical Tutor

    Green (42)
    3x Plow Under
    3x Stunted Growth
    4x Groundskeeper
    4x Wall of Roots
    4x Bird of Paradise
    4x River Boa
    4x Frenzied Tilling
    3x Sylvan Library
    3x Thornscape Battlemage
    3x Hull Breach (G/R)
    2x Tsunami
    2x Earthlink (G/R/B)
    2x Destructive Flow (G/R/B)
    1x Regrowth

    Red (53)
    4x Avalanche Riders
    4x Ravenous Baboons
    4x Lightning Bolt
    4x Incinerate
    4x Recoup
    4x Implode
    4x Demolish
    4x Wildfire Emissary
    4x Pyroblast
    3x Price of Progress
    3x Flashfires
    2x Sowing Salt
    2x Boil
    2x Ruination
    2x Wildfire
    1x Gamble
    1x Wheel of Fortune
    1x Obliterate

    White (19)
    4x Swords to Plowshares
    4x Soltari Trooper
    3x Orim’s Thunder
    3x Story Circle
    3x Soltari Guerrilla (W/R)
    1x Enlightened Tutor
    1x Balance

    Land (104)
    4x Taiga
    4x Bayou
    4x Badlands
    4x Gemstone Mine
    4x City of Brass
    24x Mountains
    20x Forest
    18x Swamp
    11x Island
    11x Plains

    Artifacts - I pulled the Moxen because I have none. This deck cries out for both the original 5 as well as the Diamonds, but alas… I still think Fellwar Stone has good potential for mana generation, so in it stays. Barbed Wire is there to benefit from my having more land than my opponent(s).

    Black - Foolishly, I left Terminate out of my first draft. I added the Bog Wraiths because I need more creatures, and I figure that 3/3 with swampwalk might prove quite useful. The Bog Wraith might go, though, and be replaced by some of the gold enchantments I am currently counting as being Green.

    Blue – I chose Propaganda over Collective Restraint due to casting costs. The Restraint is potentially much better, but why take chances? Stroke of Genius is gone for two reasons – not only are odds good that I won’t have enough mana to make it worthwhile, and I also have 0 of these. Pendrell Mists is more creature hate.

    Green – Lots of changes here. Rancor and Skyshroud Elite are gone, as is the Yavimaya Elder (he might come back). I considered Creeping Mold, but cut it in favor of more cards. I’ve put many gold cards here – Hull Breach, Earthlink, Frenzied Tilling, and Destructive Flow.

    Red – Ah, the meat of this deck. I chose Demolish over Pillage due to its not having RR in its casting cost. I’ve pulled many creatures, to include some of my more dubious choices, such as Orcish Squatters and Subterranean Spirit. Wildfire is here, though I don’t know if I’ve enough artifact mana to support it. Much of the artifact kill is gone, as well.

    White – This is a tough one, and open to much speculation. Orim’s Thunder replaces Disenchant. Story Circle looks like a good way around all sorts of minor inconveniences. The shadow guys are there (I know the Priest and Monk are better) for their casting cost containing but one W mana apiece. Balance is Balance. And while I might get the shaft on land and cards in hand, I have gotta win the creature portion!!!

    Land – Look, I added many more. I could add lots of dual lands (I actually have these), but they would all die quickly to my land destruction. I would also like more land-fetching cards (Thawing Glaciers would be nice), but am unsure which ones to add. Maybe the forest-based ones.

    Overall, I have just realized that my “don’t have it so I pulled it” argument is moot, as I have no Mirari, Orim’s Thunder, and Destructive Flow, among others. Maybe I should do an optimal build (presuming access to ALL cards) and a likely build (presuming access to many cards – most of them newer). The latter is what the above deck is turning into.

    And I guess my subtheme of direct damage doesn’t work either, at least not this time. Sorry Mundungu. Overall, I fear that I’ve put too many resources into killing lands, and not enough into killing opponents…

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