Discussion in 'Casual Decks/Variants/Etc' started by Captain Caveman, Mar 30, 2001.

  1. Captain Caveman New Member

    Does anyone has a good, Type II, Five Color Green decklist? Whether it be for Casual play or tournament play doesn't
    really matter. Casual players unite! Please help to build this type of deck.

    It seems like we have two ways to pursue this deck type. First would be the traditional utility build and the
    second would be a Domain style of build. What do you think would be the best?

    Here's the deck I built. Its sort of a utility belt type of deck with a few Domain cards thrown in. I'm sure its not a
    very good deck so feel free to shread my build or post something of your own design.



    2 Star Compass
    1 Meekstone

    4 Chimeric Idol
    4 Birds of Paradise
    3 Utopia Tree
    2 Devout Witness
    2 Magnigoth Treefolk
    1 River Boa
    1 Blinding Angel
    1 Rootwater Thief
    1 Ordered Migration(not really a creature but they fly)

    4 Worldly Counsel
    3 Dromar's Charm....( or Spite/Malice)
    2 Terminate
    2 Vampiric Tutor
    2 Eladamri's Call
    2 Collective Restraint
    1 Void
    1 Tsabo's Web

    6 Forest
    4 Terminal Moraine
    3 Island
    3 Plains
    2 City of Brass
    1 Swamp
    1 Mountain
    1 Brushland
    1 Adarkar Wastes

    Possible Sideboard:
    1 Global Ruin
    3 Gainsay
    1 Tsabo's Decree...?(vs Rebels)
    2 Sunscape Battlemage
    1 Lobotomy
    1 Artifact Mutation
    2 Chill..?(vs Red Zone)
    1 Light of Day...?(vs Nether & Scuta)
    1 Grinning Totem
    1 Pure Reflection...?(vs counter stuff)
    1 Aura Mutation
  2. rakso New Member

    Well, I don't know if this will interest you, but this document details the old 5CG decks down to Cathy Nicoloff's original version.

    Covers Flagpole decks of Tempest as well.

    Look in "Appendix II" at the end.



    Creatures (26)
    4 Birds of Paradise
    4 Quirion Ranger
    4 Granger Guildmage
    4 River Boa
    1 Karoo Meerkat
    4 Whirling Dervish
    2 Jolrael's Centaur
    3 Maro

    Spells (18)
    2 Armor of Thorns
    4 Incinerate
    4 Arcane Denial
    3 Winter Orb
    2 Terror
    2 Disenchant
    1 Armageddon

    Land (16)
    4 Undiscovered Paradise
    3 City of Brass
    9 Forest

    The primer emphasized that green had so few tricks except for pump spells like Giant Growth that Stompy was forced to win through sheer speed. An obvious solution is to add spells from another color, something facilitated by Birds of Paradise (and in more recent times, Land Grant).

    In the 1997 Florida Regionals, Cathy Nicoloff won with such an idea. Cathy credited the design to Matt Place, who also named the deck, with help from Daniel Burdick, Nate Clarke and herself. That Type II tournament consisted mainly of blue decks that were mainly either Draw-Go type decks with large flyers or decks that revolved around the Winter Orb / Dream Tides combo.

    Green 5-color was a slow deck based around green creatures and a lot of utility. Quirion Ranger alone could have accounted for half the tricks. It allowed the casting of Armageddon with just 1 land by bouncing Forests and untapping Birds, it boosted Maro at faster-than-instant speed, and it defeated Dream Tides and Winter Orb all by itself.

    In its time, the deck looked quite funny. As Cathy wrote in the Legion archive, ¡§I think the main reason that it was not played more is because nearly everyone who saw it unanimously thought it was a pile of garbage. I received more than a few disparaging comments during the swiss round at Regionals.¡¨

    What was interesting was that the creatures provided a lot of the utility, with Whirling Dervish and River Boa amazing against black and blue decks, respectively (the Karoo Meerkat acted as a fifth Boa of sorts). The spells were very straightforward, though a less obvious note by Cathy in the Legion archive was that Terror not only killed opposing fat creatures, but destroyed dangerous Walls of Air and Suq¡¦Ata Firewalkers as well. Though Arcane Denial was a very bad card, it rounded out Green 5-Color¡¦s tricks with a panic button against mass destruction.

    An important note about the deck was that it was actually slow and control-oriented. Cathy explained, ¡§If this deck is played like a weenie swarm, it will die rather quickly to mass creature removal. The idea is to trickle out the weenies until your opponent deals with them. I spent a lot of matches against R/U attacking for one over and over again. By the time we had exhausted that avenue, I was able to build up to a Winter Orb and a Maro, which made me glad I saved cards in my hand.¡¨

    Erik Lauer added, ¡§The deck plays incredibly slow for a ¡¥mono-green¡¦ deck, what with the quirion ranger throwing forests back into your hand and the Undiscovered Paradise going back too, so even if you wanted, there is little chance of playing your entire hand out by the 4th or 5th turn, which I suppose it good. The deck prevents you from misplaying it by rationing the mana sources.¡¨

    As interesting as the deck may seem, however, it was strictly a metagame choice against the blue decks. Eric Taylor opined that the removal in Type II then made Green 5-color possible. Red had less burn spells and was less inclined to use one on Birds of Paradise, which would not normally be good but was effective against Green 5-color. In addition, Swords to Plowshares was not legal, which made playing a Maro and bouncing Forests to make it bigger a far less risky play. He added that there was less mass destruction like Wrath of God played, and that land destruction was also not a factor (note that Green 5-color had so few land).

    Erik Lauer added that spells that destroyed 1 toughness creatures such as Serrated Arrows were also not in the environment (note Cathy¡¦s emphasis on Suq¡¦Ata Firewalker). He explained that the deck¡¦s greatest weakness was its reliance on creatures for mana, and that a red deck that could kill the Birds and use Pillage to destroy the City of Brass or Undiscovered Paradise.

    Indeed, this was something that the deck¡¦s worst fear, the 4-color Black deck, could easily do. Cathy commented on the July-September 1997 Type II: ¡§In the current environment, there's so much black I can't imagine why people would want to play it¡K Contagion is too devastating against this deck and, like I said, there's so much black in the environment it's probably too risky to attempt to play it. Five color green succeeded when the environment was control-based, with slow Thawing Glacier decks and big blue flyers. It doesn't succeed in very fast environments, with speed black weenie, four-color black decks and tons of mono red.

    ¡§I haven't played the deck since Regionals (I disassembled it the next day, somehow accurately guessing that it would never do that well again). I'm not qualified to comment on how it does in the current environment, except I played against a couple of them in the State Championships (I was playing 4 color black) and crushed them with Contagions and Incinerates and Nekrataals and Man O Wars. Fallen Askari is simply the bane of five color green.¡¨

    While it never did achieve the same success, as predicted, many players were interested enough to continue tinkering with the archtype and adding new spells:

    Creatures (26)
    4 Birds of Paradise
    4 Quirion Ranger
    2 Llanowar Elves
    3 Granger Guildmage
    3 River Boa
    3 Jolrael's Centaur
    1 Lhurgoyf
    2 Maro
    2 Derelor
    2 Man-O-War

    Spells (18)
    4 Incinerate
    2 Terror
    1 Diabolic Edict
    2 Giant Growth
    3 Memory Lapse
    3 Armageddon
    3 Winter Orb

    Land (18)
    2 Undiscovered Paradise
    4 City of Brass
    3 Gemstone Mine
    9 Forest

    3 Gloom
    3 Warmth
    3 Scragnoth
    3 Karma
    3 Tranquil Grove

    The same listing included a rough 5-color Black deck (later refinements removed counters and Propaganda from this deck and play up the creature removal and the ability of Shadow Guildmage to recycle the comes-into-play abilities of key creatures, and such a deck won the World Championships):

    Creatures (18)
    2 Shadow Guildmage
    4 Black Knight
    3 Knight of Stromgald
    2 Dauthi Horror
    1 Necratog
    3 Man O¡¦War
    3 Nekrataal

    Spells (21)
    3 Diabolic Edict
    4 Incinerate
    2 Disenchant
    3 Memory Lapse
    3 Propaganda
    4 Winter Orb
    2 Armageddon

    Land (21)
    4 Undiscovered Paradise
    2 City of Brass
    2 Gemstone Mine
    2 Underground River
    11 Swamp

    3 Perish
    2 Coercion
    2 Boil
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Disenchant
    2 Knight of the Mists
    2 Tranquil Domain

    Several expansions later, the power and splashability of Tradewind Rider from Tempest gave rise to a new class of 5-color green (though these were mainly green/blue decks). These were attributed to Andrew Pacifico, who named the deck ¡§Flagpole,¡¨ after what he called his Wall of Blossoms. (Others referred to the deck simply as 5-Color Tradewind.) It was an interesting deck. Andrew dubbed the single Disrupt as his trademark, and this actually forced players to slow their play because they feared that there was more than 1 in the deck.

    Creatures (17)
    3 Birds of Paradise
    4 Wall of Blossom
    3 Man O¡¦War
    3 Uktabi Orangutan
    4 Tradewind Rider

    Counters (8)
    4 Mana Leak
    3 Counterspell
    1 Disrupt

    Others (13)
    2 Firestorm
    1 Earthquake
    3 Legacy¡¦s Allure
    4 Impulse
    3 Armageddon

    Land (22)
    2 Undiscovered Paradise
    2 City of Brass
    2 Gemstone Mine
    2 Reflecting Pool
    5 Forest
    5 Island
    4 Quicksand

    4 Chill
    3 Light of Day
    2 Earthquake
    1 Lobotomy
    3 Phyrexian Furnace
    2 Disenchant

    The deck Andrew used to win an Eastern Division Junior Super Series Qualifier (several months older than the listed deck) was similar but had 2 Dismiss and 1 Whispers of the Muse. Charles¡¦ win actually had a story as interesting as the Flagpole deck, as he reported on the Dojo in November 1998: ¡§I¡¦m a freshman in high school, and the week before the JSS was finals for my school. As I had to study, my playtesting for the tournament was really limited. In fact, I only got one day to playtest against real people. I tried to figure out the field as best I could by looking at tourney reports on the Dojo, and while there, I saw a report for a 5c Tradewind deck.

    ¡§It looked like with a few changes, it could beat what I needed it to. I built it and just started drawing 7 (goldfishing?) and it looked good. So I typed it out on Apprentice and played it against my friends. It got rocked by decks that I thought I could beat!

    ¡§Hmmm.¡KNow in desperation for a good deck, I started e-mailing people, including Andrew Pacifico, the guy that made the original 5c tradewind. Now this is all like 2 days before I leave to Florida, so I didn¡¦t expect anything much, if any, feedback. Instead everyone got back to me with advice and Andrew, this guy¡K.We¡¦ve never even met and he¡¦s giving me advice on changes, what he¡¦s going to play, and what the field should be like. So the night before I leave, I make some more changes, pack my stuff, and study for my History Final.¡¨

    Soon afterwards, Urza¡¦s Saga rotated in and the Mirage block and the beloved Impulse rotated out. Tradewind Rider and Flagpole remained popular. One funny addition was the unlikely Tradewind Rider / Gilded Drake combo.

    Creatures (18)
    4 Birds of Paradise
    4 Wall of Blossoms
    3 Spike Feeder
    1 Mirri, Cat Warrior
    4 Tradewind Rider
    2 Spike Weaver

    Counters (6)
    4 Force Spike
    2 Mana Leak

    Others (9)
    4 Legacy¡¦s Allure
    2 Lobotomy
    2 Winter Orb
    1 Stroke of Genius

    Mana (24)
    2 Fellwar Stone
    2 City of Brass
    2 Thran Quarry
    8 Forest
    7 Island
    2 Gaea¡¦s Cradle
    1 Wasteland

    2 Lobotomy
    4 Propaganda
    1 Congregate
    3 Pyroblast
    3 Disenchant
    2 Gilded Drake

    This was actually a rough deck being tested in the earliest days of Urza¡¦s Saga. Chad wrote on the Dojo that one quirk survived the rotation, ¡§Against control the Stroke is a great way to draw a counter during their discard phase. The idea is basically borrowed from Andrew Pacifico's original Flagpole deck, which would use Whispers to tap mana/draw a counter and then Armageddon on his own turn, needing only one counter to back it up.

    Reminiscent of Andrew¡¦s original Disrupt, Chad added, ¡§Using Spikes and Leaks partly reflected the low mana environment I hoped to create with the Worbs (Winter Orbs) and partly the speed I was expecting. Force Spiking a Priest of Gix, an Academy Deck's first Mana Vault, or Counter-Phoenix's turn-three Intuition is more important to the deck than worrying about turn eleven spells if I haven't succeeded in establishing control.¡¨

    Other Tradewind-based green decks were created in this time period, with a number using the synergy of Tradewind Rider with Armageddon and even Stasis.

    Creatures (26)
    4 Birds of Paradise
    4 Quirion Ranger
    3 Granger Guildmage
    4 Wall of Roots
    4 Jolrael's Centaur
    3 Maro
    4 Tradewind Rider

    Spells (16)
    4 Mana Leak
    3 Propaganda
    3 Incinerate
    3 Armageddon
    3 Winter Orb

    Land (18)
    4 Undiscovered Paradise
    3 City of Brass
    2 Gemstone Mine
    9 Forest

    4 Disenchant
    4 Pyroblast
    4 Hydroblast
    2 Terror
    1 Propaganda

    In Type I casual play, dual lands and spells such as Tithe and Land Grant eliminate the need to use green and Birds of Paradise as the base color for a 5-color deck. After the Flagpole decks, its next appearance was possibly as an archtype in Invasion Limited, before the addition of Planeshift reduced the chances of opening packs with Harrow and Fertile Ground.

    Part of the character of the original Green 5-Color deck survived in the archtype, as Mike Pustilnik detailed in his introduction to Invasion draft: ¡§A 5CG draft deck consists of (hopefully) half Green cards, with the remaining cards split among the remaining four colors. The Green cards that give you access to mana of the other colors make the 5CG deck work. These cards include Harrow, Quirion Elves, Quirion Trailblazer, Nomadic Elves, and Fertile Ground. Harrow is the best of these, and if you are committed to a 5CG strategy, then Harrow is a first pick.

    ¡§A 5CG deck can and should play all the best cards in the other colors, even if they require two different non-Green colored mana. Plague Spores and Barrin's Spite, for example, belong in a 5CG deck.

    ¡§Choosing how many of each basic land to play in a 5CG deck can be difficult. You should play at least one of each basic land, so you can get it with Harrow. If about half of your cards are Green, then a reasonable mana configuration is 8-4-3-1-1 (8 forests). If you have fewer Green cards, then you might have to play more land in order to ensure that you get the colored mana that you need early on. This will increase the chance of a mana flood and weaken your deck. If many of your cards are white and blue, for example, then you might have to play 6 Forests, 6 Plains, 5 Islands, 1 Mountain, and 1 Swamp (for nineteen lands total).

    ¡§One huge advantage of 5CG is that cards that depend on the number of different basic land that you control can operate at maximum effectiveness. The uncommon Ordered Migration and the common Strength of Unity are especially good, and you should try to draft three to four of these.¡¨
  3. Captain Caveman New Member

    Thanks for the info. We can always count on you for really good Primers. I guess, I should have looked for that at
    your site.(..never even give it a thought; oops)

    Time to go back to the drawing board. I wonder how well Cathy's deck would transfer over into today's enviro? Its
    a totally different game, so can Green 5-Color be tuned to beat Skies, Fires, C/Rebels and C/Wrath?

    Gotta run,

  4. rakso New Member


    However, if it's Type II you're talking about, maybe you should note that Cathy said her deck was a slower control weenie deck that did well against blue.

    Green weenies are nonexistent while green fat is really strong. Maybe you should see what spells in 7th can help this archtype out. Otherwise, you may get overrun or have to use far yourself, and will end up with either Fires or Blastogeddon.

    I suggest exploring Eladamri's Call. Maybe you can use utility creatures and just fetch them at will. This would be an interesting use of a 5-color base.

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