5-Color Color hosing/manipulation idea

Discussion in 'Casual Decks/Variants/Etc' started by Mikeymike, Nov 20, 2001.

  1. Mikeymike Captain Hiatus

    OK guys I'm going to need some help with this one.

    Krichaiushii brought up a neat idea in his 5-Color deck, use tons and tons of color hosers to annoy the opponent to death. There have got to easily 200 solid color hoser/manipulator cards, I think this deck can be built.

    Krichaiushii, visit this link to see the entire Odyessy spoiler so you know some of the cards I'm referring to:
    http://www.wizards.com/magic/generic/cardlists/od_spoiler_en.txt

    Manipulators
    Tidal Visionary
    Distoring Lens
    Alchor's Tomb
    Blind Seer
    Vodalian Mystic (Apoc)
    Whim of Volrath
    Sleight of Mind
    Magical Hack
    Crystal Spray
    Dream Thrush
    Sea Snidd (or Mystic Compass)

    Quick, destructive Blasts (think of them as 1 mana instant Vindicates)
    Hydro-Pryo Blast
    Red-Blue Elemental Blast
    Active Volcano

    Some Hosers
    Light of Day
    Collective Restraint
    Teferi's Moat
    Douse (this could be ugly with the Blind Seer and the Mystic)
    Lifeforce
    Scald (well, something that deals damage)
    Washout
    Story Circle
    CoPs
    I'll let you guys fill the rest

    Utility Creatures
    Northern Paladin
    Southern Paladin
    King Crab
    Slingshot Goblin
    Repentant Vampire (Ody)
    Spellbane Centaur (Ody, a new favorite creature)

    Landwalkers
    River Boa
    Graceful Antelope (Ody, and damn this would be annoying)
    Are there any 3+ power landwalkers?

    Solid 'Protection from' creatures
    Crypt Angel
    Soltari Monk/Priest
    Invasion Bears
    Spectral Lynx
    Knights
    Sabertooth Nishoba
    Mystic Enforcer (Ody.)

    Other support
    A bunch of the restricted cards
    Fountain Watch, Hanna's Custody and/or Sterling Grove
    Copy Artifacts (I'm very surprised this hasn't been abused in 5C)
    Card drawing
    More card drawing

    What do you think?
  2. CHA1N5 New Member

    or...

    Choose your win condition carefully.


    You have come up with quite a bit of research on the hoser cards, but you really have many more to go!

    I've not seen a deck like this attempted in 5, but I will tell you that many people fill their red cards with Pyroblasts due to the overwhelming presence of Blue in the metagame.

    I think that you should sit down with this list and think about how, exactly, you want to hose your opponent....

    Do you want to deny them resources via mass land destruction?
    (Choke, Tsunami, Boil, Flashfires)

    Do you want to nullify their permanents?
    (Null Rod, Light of Day, T-Moat, CoP's, Story Circle)

    Do you want to counter all of their spells?
    (Douse, Lifeforce, Death Grip, Stromgald Cabal, Thrull Wizard)

    Do you want to kill them with invincible/unblockable creatures?
    (Iridecent Angel, Paladin En-Vec, River Boa)


    I get the feeling that you want to use all of these approaches :) Which is fun... but some of them are just better than others. I believe that you should consider a couple of points when choosing:

    How can I maximize this effect on my opponent and minimize it for myself?

    How will my opponent deal with this threat?

    Will this hoser truly stop everything I want it to?


    Let's take the mass land-destruction, for example:
    How to Maximize for them and Minimize for you?
    Change their lands into the types you want to destroy and keep yours away from those types. Assuming that you're going the Boil/Tsunami/Choke route (the most cards that hose a single land type... and a good land type to hose, in general)... keep in mind that you're going to need to stay away from Islands yourself. Also, keep in mind that many 5's have many varied sources of blue mana. This works for you and against you. Your blue-toting opponent will likely have Mox Diamonds, Felwar Stones, Faerie Conclaves, Cities of Brass, Gemstone Mines, etc. That means that you need to be able to get rid of these lands and/or make them Islands as well. Unfortunately, nearly every card that is capable of changing land types to Islands is a terrible card! (See your list of manipulators)

    so...
    How will my opponent deal with this threat?
    First, they will counter your spells... but that goes for nearly any anti-blue approach. Realistically, they will simply lose a couple of lands and continue to function with other mana sources.

    so...
    Will this hoser stop what I want it to?
    Only a little.



    Asking these questions of the other sub-themes of this hypothetical deck will yield slightly different answers. However, one thing that you're going to find in many cases is that the diversity of threats and cards in any given 5 is going to render your theme less effective, overall. Even the decks that are heavily blue have 70+ cards in other colors and plenty of artifacts to work with.

    In the end, I think that you can integrate some of these themes into other deck themes, but they will not support themselves.

    Examples: the Blue & Red Blasts are generally useful because everyone has at least some of the cards of these colors in their decks. If you add Blind Seer and/or Distorting Lens to the mix, your Blasts become amazing. The Blind Seer/Lens also help your T-Moat, Story Circle and Protection Creatures.

    So, if you have a great idea for locking your opponent down with Douse+Seer+Light of Day+Darkest Hour... go for it. Just be sure to have some Pyroblasts and Stromgald Cabals to protect yourself ;)


    CHA1N5
  3. Mikeymike Captain Hiatus

    I agree mostly with this statement. I strongly feel that there are enough cards to choose from to build a deck where the majority of the cards are color-centric and can stand up on their own. Yet all the deck needs is 1 color-manipulator in play to create a situation that immediately becomes a problem for the opponent.

    Personally, I'd go with the permanent-screw approach and leave the lands alone (Yet I still think Graceful Antelope is a great card in 5C) because I don't think you could focus enough on the lands to create a serious enough problem for the opponent.

    Here is something similar to what I might build:

    White 30
    4 Spectral Lynx
    4 Northern Paladin
    4 Southern Paladin
    2 Graceful Antelope
    4 STP
    3 CoP White
    3 CoP Red
    3 CoP Green
    3 CoP Black

    Blue 30
    4 Tidal Visionary
    4 Blind Seer
    2 King Crab
    4 Vodalian Mystic (turns STP red, Lightning Bolt black, etc.)
    4 Hydroblast
    4 Blue Elemental Blast
    4 Whim of Volrath
    4 Douse

    Green 16
    4 River Boa
    4 Quirion Elves
    4 Spellbane Centaur
    4 Compost

    Black 20
    4 Bone Shredder
    4 Crypt Angel
    4 Slay
    4 Perish
    4 Contract

    Red 20
    4 FTK
    4 Slingshot Goblin
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Pyroblast
    4 Red Elemental Blast

    Gold 22
    4 Shivan Zombie
    4 Galina's Knight
    4 Mystic Enforcer (green spell)
    4 Finkeltraitor (black spell)
    3 Sabertooth Nishoba
    3 Teferi's Moat

    Artifact 11
    4 Distorting Lens
    4 Alchor's Tomb
    3 Mirari

    147 cards so far with no restricted cards yet.

    At the least its a unique idea.
  4. CHA1N5 New Member

    or...

    I'm thinkin' of somethin' Orange!
    Somthin' Oooooooorrrraaaaaaange!


    Mikey, I think you're on a good track to make this theme competitive.

    I do still think that some of your card choices are junk, though:

    If you're going to pay this much for a dude that has a tapping ability... why not just play Multani, who has:

    TAP: Win target game.

    Isn't that much more to-the-point? -- ;)




    Might want to consider mixing in some Spheres, here. White sources, for instance, are rarely going to do more than 2 points of damage to you.
    What? No CoP blue? Morphling will still get around most of the hosers you have, btw.

    Beefcake!
    BEEFCAAAAAKE!

    (I like this guy)


    I would really like to see Thrull Wizards in this deck... and/or Stromgald Cabal.


    How about copy artifact? Good synergy with your existing artifacts and the restricted ones that you will add.


    These guys are pretty inferior to Utopia Tree and BoP's... even Urborg Elves.


    Oooh, Shifting Sky would be some fun, here.

    Shifty,

    CHA1N5
  5. Dune Echo CPA Founder, Idea Man

    White 30
    4 Spectral Lynx - Excellent. I do recommend this creature!
    4 Northern Paladin - You may want to cut this down to 2... You're not going to run into a lot of black creatures (more black restricted cards than anything, most likely), unless you're playing against beatdown.
    4 Southern Paladin - Again, 2 or less... Most red you'll see, even against beatdown is Lightning Bolt clones or the artifact removal (very few creatures). Blue Elemental Blast or Hydroblast probably would serve you better.
    2 Graceful Antelope - :) Tell me how this does, I'm curious to know. Flashfires would be good along with this guy.
    4 Swords to Plowshares - Recommended for any deck.
    3 CoP White
    3 CoP Red
    3 CoP Green
    3 CoP Black

    Personally, I'd run only the Circles of Protection: Black, Green, or Red. Those are going to be your most likely damage sources. Also, Greater Realm of Preservation might be better.

    Blue 30
    4 Tidal Visionary - Interesting combo with the Circles...
    4 Blind Seer
    2 King Crab - Fat, but expensive... Not sure what to recommend.
    4 Vodalian Mystic - Nice synergy with your theme.
    4 Hydroblast - :) You're going to have fun.
    4 Blue Elemental Blast - See above.
    4 Whim of Volrath - Island walking will be good.
    4 Douse - You're going to love Vodalian Mystic...

    Green 16
    4 River Boa - Excellent, nice blocker with Spectral Lynx.
    4 Quirion Elves - Hrm... Birds if you have 'em.
    4 Spellbane Centaur - I'm slightly torn about this... Global protections are good, but you're still going to have to deal with the Wrath/Rout that gets through.
    4 Compost - Good card advantage engine! It screams "Please Whim me!"

    Black 20
    4 Bone Shredder - Good, even without the color manipulation.
    4 Crypt Angel - Black regrowth of a sort. I like it.
    4 Slay - Hrm... Good if you can pull it off.
    4 Perish - One-sided Wrath of God if it works correctly.
    4 Contract - Of course!

    Red 20
    4 FTK - Excellent.
    4 Slingshot Goblin - I'm thinking that there has to be something better, even though it's reusable. Not sure. Lightning Cloud (man, that's really janky)?
    4 Lightning Bolt - Excellent.
    4 Pyroblast - Good overall.
    4 Red Elemental Blast - Good addition.

    Gold 22
    4 Shivan Zombie - Your Invasion bears will be good.
    4 Galina's Knight - See above.
    4 Mystic Enforcer - Good creature, especially with Threshold, which may or may not be hard for you to get.
    4 Finkeltraitor - Excellent.
    3 Sabertooth Nishoba - Good.
    3 Teferi's Moat - Good.

    Artifact 11
    4 Distorting Lens - Nice synergy.
    4 Alchor's Tomb - Kind of expensive to buy and use.... Could be good though.
    3 Mirari - You're going to have a lot of fun forking everything you play. :)
  6. Mikeymike Captain Hiatus

    I owe you guys a little better explanation of my card selections.

    King Crab - He is in here due to the annoyance factor of the creature going on top of its owner's library. I've run this combo before and their are certain times its simply advantageous over the Paladins, it truly is extremely annoying. However, he is a heavy mana commitment every turn so he is no guarantee to make it to the final decklist.

    8 Paladins - There are 8 in here b/c the Paladins can destroy any specific colored permanent. He (they) is Vindicate on a stick. Heavy white commitment, but its worth it. I've got 20 cards that can alter a permanents color or the Paladins color-targeting.

    Quirion Elves - Can't really explain why these are in here over BoP and UTree's, wasn't thinking (hey, we are talking a 250 card deck, cut me some slack :p). They would be changed when the deck is built.

    CoPs - Good point about Morphling and Multani, I definitely will need to account for them. 4 Green, 3 Blue, 4 Greater Realms - sound good?

    Slingshot Goblin - I was hurting for red cards, but I suppose these could be anything from Urza' Rage to Active Volcano.

    Spellbane Centaur - Right now I don't have enough color changing spells (V. Mystic, Seer) to warrant this guys inclusion, plus he shuts down any blue targeting of my own creatures from me. He's out.

    Slay - Cute, but it might be unecessary. Not sure yet.

    Alchor's Tomb - This is much more expensive than I'd like, but I would need it to help support the color changing theme. One good thing is that I can keep it tapped so if I have a Lynx out I can make a creature green until I get something to kill it.

    ----
    Card suggestions
    Multani - Yup, he'll probably make it in the deck. There is no reason he shouldn't.

    Spheres - Worth a look, but I think the CoP's are superior b/c they are cheaper (and this deck is mana intensive) and they prevent a Mystic Enforcer from destroying me (instead of just delaying him).

    Thrull Wizard - This guy is neat, I'd try him out.

    Stromgald Cabal / Order of the White Shield (?) - I forgot about these guys. I'd probably go with the sheild, as the double-black CC of the Cabal might be a little tougher to cast. I'll be heavy white anyway.

    Copy Artifact - I can't believe this card isn't restricted...I'll be adding 4 to the deck :)

    Shifing Sky - Man, this card would create some headaches, huh? Its like letting a bull loose in a china shop, what havoc it would create. The only thing is, I don't know if I'd be able to control the card, but I'll have to try it out.


    And what do you guys think of:
    Mystic Crusader (over the Paladin)
    Insight
    Mana Maze (I don't know if I've got the stomach for it)
    Coalition victory :D
    Honorable Passage (tech)
  7. rkoelsch Angel Boy

    Mikeymike Alchor tomb doesn't help you. It only affects your permanents. you don't care about the color of your permanents you want to change your opponents. you can try prismatic lace or sway of illusion.
  8. Mikeymike Captain Hiatus

    Argh! You're right. Boy that completely sucks. Well at least I don't have to go get the other 3 now. Sway of Illusion is a good idea too. Thanks rkoelsch.

    Does anyone know of any more permanents that can change another permanents color? A bigger version of Tidal Visionary maybe?
  9. Griffith_se Queen of the Sub-Optimal

    No, just some instants are all I can think of.

    Sleight of Mind
    Illusion/Reality (Illusion)
    Mind Bend

    How about Runes, instead of Circles?
  10. Mikeymike Captain Hiatus

    I'd rather have the cycling, but I've got to stick to the CoPs b/c their activation cost is colorless while the Runes require W, which I won't have too much of.
  11. Griffith_se Queen of the Sub-Optimal

    Oh, at first glance it seems like you would be
    heavy with Plains and Islands.
  12. Mikeymike Captain Hiatus

    I will be heavier in Plains and Islands (well hopefully if I don't get color-screwed myself :D), but with 250 cards and 5 colors the changes of me getting a strong supply of spare white mana are that strong. My main goal is to get up to 2 plains and 2 islands so I can do what I want the deck to do, but the Rune would want more than 2 plains to feed its appetite.

    Plus, the colorless option of the CoPs means that I should never have a problem casting my white instants, or worry about using up my white mana on my turn.

    Mind Bend / Sleight of Mind are in consideration for the deck, it really depends on its consistency.
    Illusion / Reality is actually a decent card for this deck - I can't beleive I just put the word 'decent' and the card Illusion/Reality in the same sentence!

    I'm thinking Crystal Spray is still probably worth including, as its a cantrip too.
  13. Griffith_se Queen of the Sub-Optimal

    Heres two Creature Enchantments that might work.


    Dream Coat
    U, Enchant Creature, Legends Uncommon
    Caster may change target creature’s color to any other color. This ability is played as an
    interrupt. Limit of one change per turn. Cost to tap, maintain, or use a special ability of target
    creature remains entirely unchanged.

    Sisay’s Ingenuity
    U, Enchant Creature, Planeshift Common
    When Sisay’s Ingenuity comes into play, draw a card.
    Enchanted creature has "2U: Target creature becomes the color of your choice until end of turn."
  14. rkoelsch Angel Boy

    Now here is a good use for sisay ingenuity good catch griffith-se
  15. Griffith_se Queen of the Sub-Optimal

    Do you think slivers would be good for a 5 color
    deck?
  16. rkoelsch Angel Boy

    countersliver has done well before I don't see why this would be different.
  17. krichaiushii New Member

    Mikeymike - since you seem to have come into a number of older cards lately, perhaps you can gather these, as well.

    Legends had a series of cards - instants - that would change any number of target creatures into the color of the spell until end of turn.

    Red - Dwarven Song
    White - Heaven's Gate (fun with Martyr's Cry)
    Black - Touch of Darkness
    Green - Sylvan something (Paradise?)
    Blue - couldn't tell you, maybe TICM can.

    Anyhow, these might fit the bill for comboing with cards like Perish and such. Actually, beyond Perish and Holy Light, what are the other cards that affect color-specific creatures in negative ways? I know there are some... there just has to be.

    Oh, and I am still working on the notes for my 5color, so my revision should be up tonight/tomorrow.

    Happy Thanksgiving!
  18. Thallid Ice Cream Man 21sT CeNTuRy sChIZoId MaN

    Darn it...

    Despite valiant attempts of twisting around in my chair, pacing, and frantically shaking my head in a vain effort to remember, I actually had to go the Magic Encyclopedia to look this one up...
    Sea King's Blessing (at least I had the sea part before I looked...) is the blue card that lets you make any number of creatures blue until end of turn.

    Of course, Sway of Illusion, which has already been mentioned, is probably a bit better than those cards from Legends, because it's a cantrip.

    Curse of Marit Lage and Wrath of Marit Lage are both strong color hosers, but if you want to limit yourself to disruption of other permanents, Wrath of Marit Lage isn't as good. (Both are from Ice Age.)
    Magnetic Mountain is relatively good in the early game.
    Other possible cards:
    Reap
    Chill
    Blood Moon in conjunction with anti-mountain cards (a stretch, but could work)

    I'm out of other ideas...

    Happy Thanksgiving though! :)
  19. Dune Echo CPA Founder, Idea Man

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