Something that bothers me...

[FoundationOfRancor]

First of all, this has nothing to do with the plane crashes that have happened, so please dont talk about them here.

When President Bush addressed the public the previous day, he quoted the bible. Repeatedly many references have been made in the media to "God."

Personally, I think this is so insulting its unbearable.

I do not believe in god, or anything else (Im not willing to discredit this beliefs however; Im Agnostic) along those lines.

These religously based references need to STOP, no matter how good their intentions are! America is supposed to be the nation open to all peoples, and yet we only support those who belive in a universal god! It sickens me, and it offends me.

Please, post your thoughts and opinions about this very subtle subject, I'd like to get some info from intelligent people.

 

[Apollo]

It bothered me, too. When he first adressed the nation, he asked us to pray, and that really got me. It's bothered me ever since the election, when such a big deal was made out of the candidates' religion. That's the sort of thing that isn't supposed to matter.

 

[Riva Iron-Grip]

yes, it is a bad thing. but i think that bush was doing this because he believes that the terrorists are from the middle east. so in praying to "god", bush is saying that all people with middle eastern descent are not part of this nation. it sickens me to think that 1.) bush could pray for the whole nation, and 2.) that he would have the adacity to actually do so, on world television.

i do not care whether or not the terrorists were arabian or not. we have asked for this so many times over, that someone has actually done it. Yes, it is a tragic thing, but must we really dwell on this issue? if we do, then we will be unaware of the things happening around us. i believe that hte time for mourning is over. we need to take a stand, and as a country, try and resolve this issue. War is NOT the solution, i think that we should talk with the palastinians(the suspected terrorists) and try to find a way that they can share the space with the jews. perhaps that is the answer. since all they want is their holy land back.

if war happens, this is a holy war. and we WILL lose. we have no experience in fighting wars like this. and the palastinians do not care if they die for their cause. but our people do. that is our weakness. we care wether or not we actually win. but we care if we live. i think that we are out of control, and we need our hands slapped again.

 

[Ura]

Riva, the US wouldn't lose a war against Palastine and it would probably never go to war with them to begin with.
If the US was in danger of losing they'd just flatten the entire country into an atomic wasteland via nuclear bombardment and take their chances with the aftermath.
And thats only after turing the United States into a police state and throwing every person of arab decent into war camps to keep them contained and shooting the ones they couldn't catch.
You'd be surprised at just how far ANYBODY will go to survive. Morals and ethics can go right out the window in desparation which is why terrorists have nothing wrong with blowing up themselves, civilians, and each other.

FYI, Osama Bin Ladin is the main suspect, not the palastinians.

As for Bush mentioning God so prominently. Its because he has religious faith in god, it wasn't meant as an insult to anybody regardless of what some people want to read into it. Religious faith is a huge part of American life and the majority (around 90% at last poll,) of Americans do have belief in god. Why do you think the money has "In God we trust" written on it? America is a country of deep faith. Bush is trying to reach out in the only way he can to people everywhere, but he's the president so he can only do so much without looking weak. If you want to take his actions as an insult go right ahead, its your problem. I'm a shintoist/zen buddist and I found nothing wrong with his words, quite the opposite in fact because he's trying to say that he cares and is with people in their grief the only way he can.

Picking trivial fights about religion like this are exactly what groups like the Taliban and other extremists do. Do you want to be on the same level as the taliban?
Let the guy have his faith. As long as he's running the country competently and not mixing the function of state with religious bias then who cares.
As far as I'm concerned he could be a voodoo shaman and wear a talisman around his neck instead of a tie, just as long as he does what he's in office to do.

 

[Hetemti]

(Note: I use the term Christian here to represent all factions that believe in God and Jesus. I'm not going to meddle with the various devisions and subcults.) (Addendum: this echos Ura a bit...I don't usually read all posts before replying. )

1) If Bush is of a Christian faith, he's going to mention God.
2) Christian faiths are very prevolent in America.
3) America was founded by those of Christian faith.
4) Our money says "In God We Trust." If you don't like our money, send it to me.
5) America permits Freedom of Religion. That means you can't gripe about other people's faith in return for not being persecuted for your own. Quit your bitching or move to a communist land where everyone will believe the same thing...or die.
6) Phrases involving references to Christian Idols are common in American culture...God D'mn it, Go to H'l, Jesus Christ!...all commonly used when one is angry. I think having three internationally recognized landmarks (two Towers, Pentagon) razed on your watch is a reason to be angry.

 

[Chaos Turtle]

Ura said everything I would have said.

I myself have been using the word "pray" a lot lately, mainly because I don't think people are particularly interested in my religious non-preference, but would rather just hear some kind and supportive words in this time of tragedy.

 

[Spiderman]

I echo the last three posts.

 

[Baskil]

Thank you, Hetemti, for using list for me to use

Originally posted by Hetemti
1) If Bush is of a Christian faith, he's going to mention God.

I can see that, although (and I guess all these posts o this subject assume it was islamic terrorists) using religious references at all at this point is a bit naive and insensitive.

2) Christian faiths are very prevolent in America.

2. There's a thing called seperation of church and state. If that ever gets renigged, you better believe I will leave this country.

3) America was founded by those of Christian faith.

Again, at least they had the common sense to take a step back and realize that all of their problems first occured with their religion. That's why we have that seperation so it never happens again.

4) Our money says "In God We Trust." If you don't like our money, send it to me.

So saying "Thank, God" is a christian saying? That's TOTALLY different from quoting scripture to a melting pot :/.

5) America permits Freedom of Religion. That means you can't gripe about other people's faith in return for not being persecuted for your own. Quit your bitching or move to a communist land where everyone will believe the same thing...or die.

Ugh. We also have a seperation of church and state. Business of state should not have any religious connotations PERIOD.

If I hear go back to where you came from one more time I'm going to puke.

The same rights you are claiming are the same rights we are using to say these things. We have a right to think and say that we should calm down with the religious connotations in our government. And if you can't see that/can't accept it, well, then it's YOU that is living in the wrong country.

6) Phrases involving references to Christian Idols are common in American culture...God D'mn it, Go to H'l, Jesus Christ!...all commonly used when one is angry. I think having three internationally recognized landmarks (two Towers, Pentagon) razed on your watch is a reason to be angry. [/B]

Angry, yes. Forget all reason, no.

 

[DÛke]

...I'll go with Baskil.

 

[Spiderman]

Can someone exactly explain with sources to back them up what "separation of church and state" mean? It seems rather casually bandied about here and I personally think that Baskil's "rebuttal" is flawed.

I mean, come on, the state prints money with "In God we Trust". I know that's not a blanket endorsement of religion but from what Baskil is saying, it shouldn't even be on there.

And I need more explanation about that statement about the Founders of America "stepping back and realizing their problems" and stuff.

 

[Rando]

From a web-site whose address I lost...

The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins. From Treasury Department records, it appears that the first such appeal came in a letter dated November 13, 1861. It was written to Secretary Chase by Rev. M. R. Watkinson, Minister of the Gospel from Ridleyville, Pennsylvania, and read:

Dear Sir: You are about to submit your annual report to the Congress respecting the affairs of the national finances.

One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked. I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.

You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the ring the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW.

This would make a beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object. This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed. From my hearth I have felt our national shame in disowning God as not the least of our present national disasters.

To you first I address a subject that must be agitated.

As a result, Secretary Chase instructed James Pollock, Director of the Mint at Philadelphia, to prepare a motto, in a letter dated November 20, 1861:

Dear Sir: No nation can be strong except in the strength of God, or safe except in His defense. The trust of our people in God should be declared on our national coins.

You will cause a device to be prepared without unnecessary delay with a motto expressing in the fewest and tersest words possible this national recognition.

It was found that the Act of Congress dated January 18, 1837, prescribed the mottoes and devices that should be placed upon the coins of the United States. This meant that the mint could make no changes without the enactment of additional legislation by the Congress. In December 1863, the Director of the Mint submitted designs for new one-cent coin, two-cent coin, and three-cent coin to Secretary Chase for approval. He proposed that upon the designs either OUR COUNTRY; OUR GOD or GOD, OUR TRUST should appear as a motto on the coins. In a letter to the Mint Director on December 9, 1863, Secretary Chase stated:

I approve your mottoes, only suggesting that on that with the Washington obverse the motto should begin with the word OUR, so as to read OUR GOD AND OUR COUNTRY. And on that with the shield, it should be changed so as to read: IN GOD WE TRUST.

The Congress passed the Act of April 22, 1864. This legislation changed the composition of the one-cent coin and authorized the minting of the two-cent coin. The Mint Director was directed to develop the designs for these coins for final approval of the Secretary. IN GOD WE TRUST first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin.

Another Act of Congress passed on March 3, 1865. It allowed the Mint Director, with the Secretary's approval, to place the motto on all gold and silver coins that "shall admit the inscription thereon." Under the Act, the motto was placed on the gold double-eagle coin, the gold eagle coin, and the gold half-eagle coin. It was also placed on the silver dollar coin, the half-dollar coin and the quarter-dollar coin, and on the nickel five-cent coin beginning in 1866. Later, Congress passed the Coinage Act of February 12, 1873. It also said that the Secretary "may cause the motto IN GOD WE TRUST to be inscribed on such coins as shall admit of such motto."

The use of IN GOD WE TRUST has not been uninterrupted. The motto disappeared from the five-cent coin in 1883, and did not reappear until production of the Jefferson nickel began in 1938. Since 1938, all United States coins bear the inscription. Later, the motto was found missing from the new design of the double-eagle gold coin and the eagle gold coin shortly after they appeared in 1907. In response to a general demand, Congress ordered it restored, and the Act of May 18, 1908, made it mandatory on all coins upon which it had previously appeared. IN GOD WE TRUST was not mandatory on the one-cent coin and five-cent coin. It could be placed on them by the Secretary or the Mint Director with the Secretary's approval.

The motto has been in continuous use on the one-cent coin since 1909, and on the ten-cent coin since 1916. It also has appeared on all gold coins and silver dollar coins, half-dollar coins, and quarter-dollar coins struck since July 1, 1908.

A law passed by the 84th Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by the President on July 30, 1956, the President approved a Joint Resolution of the 84th Congress, declaring IN GOD WE TRUST the national motto of the United States. IN GOD WE TRUST was first used on paper money in 1957, when it appeared on the one-dollar silver certificate. The first paper currency bearing the motto entered circulation on October 1, 1957. The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) was converting to the dry intaglio printing process. During this conversion, it gradually included IN GOD WE TRUST in the back design of all classes and denominations of currency.

As a part of a comprehensive modernization program the BEP successfully developed and installed new high-speed rotary intaglio printing presses in 1957. These allowed BEP to print currency by the dry intaglio process, 32 notes to the sheet. One-dollar silver certificates were the first denomination printed on the new high-speed presses. They included IN GOD WE TRUST as part of the reverse design as BEP adopted new dies according to the law. The motto also appeared on one-dollar silver certificates of the 1957-A and 1957-B series.

BEP prints United States paper currency by an intaglio process from engraved plates. It was necessary, therefore, to engrave the motto into the printing plates as a part of the basic engraved design to give it the prominence it deserved.

One-dollar silver certificates series 1935, 1935-A, 1935-B, 1935-C, 1935-D, 1935-E, 1935-F, 1935-G, and 1935-H were all printed on the older flat-bed presses by the wet intaglio process. P.L. 84-140 recognized that an enormous expense would be associated with immediately replacing the costly printing plates. The law allowed BEP to gradually convert to the inclusion of IN GOD WE TRUST on the currency. Accordingly, the motto is not found on series 1935-E and 1935-F one-dollar notes. By September 1961, IN GOD WE TRUST had been added to the back design of the Series 1935-G notes. Some early printings of this series do not bear the motto. IN GOD WE TRUST appears on all series 1935-H one-dollar silver certificates.

 

[MrXarvox]

Personally I'm not offended at all this American 'God' business.
Separation of church and state is an idea meant to keep one religion from forcing oppression on another- not to keep a rather dim-witted president from uttering a few words involving <gasp> christian concepts. I'm not a christian, I'm a Xarvox-ist (no organized religion can compare ), but I don't see any terrible problem with people publicly stating totally inoffensive religious things. Now, if Bush had said, "now let's all go to our local churches an' pray t' lord jesus christ f'r th' salvation o' th' souls o' all them good chistian americans killd", then there's something to worry about...

 

[Thallid Ice Cream Man]

I agree with FoR about the fact that ideally we wouldn't have to hear that kind of stuff. All I can say is that it makes sense for him to say that from his perspective.

Something in the same vein that does annoy me was when I saw a prayer service at which the Chaplain of the House and the Chaplain of the Senate preached.
Now, I think that there probably shouldn't be any Chaplains as official government workers, but that isn't my main point.
I'm sort of in-between in terms of my religion; I'm not an atheist, but I don't affiliate myself with any major religion either.
Anyway, one of the chaplains, I think the Chaplain of the House, began to preach.
This was a while ago, so I don't remember exactly what he said, but this man basically said stuff like "How can we find a way to deal with this situation? Only with God."
I want to stress the "only" part. He did say that, I'm sure.

This man is telling us exactly what to believe, on national television, and is a government employee.
I can deal with prayers, because I just try to ignore the mildly offending part (and it only offends me mildly).
But this was sickening. (To me, anyway.)

And a lot of religious leaders in the past few days have annoyed me by talking about "smiting the Lord's enemies" and all that kind of stuff, which, in my mind, is even worse than the kind of invective previously seen here, because it's supposed to be taken in a SACRED context.
Oh well, I'll shut up now.

 

[FoundationOfRancor]

Well, its not that Im saying that the president cant belive a religion.

The point is that it was a speech to the american people, every word was planned! He could easily replace some choice words with others, (Mourn, instead of pray) and NOT quote major sources of religion.

I wouldnt care if this was like, on the street or something; but that was the president, and that was his speech to the american people at a critical time!

And, to Hetemti and everyone else who think Im bitching about nothing....I DONT have to put up with it! This is the land of religous freedom!

Also, I'm feeling no hostilites towards anyone right now, so lets not get this thread going downhill...

 

[Goku]

Don't listen, then.

 

[FoundationOfRancor]

What!?

I cant listen to the president of MY country dictate a speech to the american people!

NO! I refuse, this is subtle arrogance about religion, and frankly I hate it.

 

[MrXarvox]

You can listen all you want and complain all you want. And I can complain about your stance too. I admit I am disturbed by these government chaplains and their preaching... I did not know of their existence... they should be done away with. We can't have preachers in the government. THAT could easily lead to corruption.
Probably already has. I have a very large problem with a nation run by people whose preachers teach them that the only way to deal with a crisis is through their god.
However, for a man, even if he is the president, to use the word "pray" instead of "mourn" (which is a depressing word that would lower the hope level of his speech) is not wrong, it's just a slight oversight, and in fact it might have been intentional, because of the fact in parentheses.

 

[Ura]

Pardon me if I find it rather humorous that as soon as a man is elected into office he can't express himself to people the only way he knows how while still trying to remain strong on the outside as a bastion of tempered resolve. Its a well known fact to basically everyone that Bush isn't the greatest speaker and that he can get tongue tied. Think about how mad and upset alot of us are over this, imagine what its like for him. For all intents and purposes this is his country because its up to him to defend it more then any other person. He's the one who has to make the decisions that will greatly affect the rest of all our lives and is probably going to alter the status of world politics forever. On top of that he has his own grief and anger to deal with, but he can't show it like the rest of us. We can come here and yell and shout and cry and express ourselves however we can. He can't, he lives under a microscope, especially now. He can't be seen breaking down in tears or freaking out because almost every other person in the nation and many people around the world are looking to men like him, our leaders, for a leaning post of strength. So all he can do is use what he has available to him so that he can try to console himself in some way and others without showing the weakness that terrorists feed off of.
To deny him the right of religious freedom and expression just because he's the president and he's on tv is to stand opposite of what those very rights are written for.
Its like saying that someone from India can't wear their turban in public because other people will see it and might be offended.
You don't have to like it, but as many have been trying to show in other threads, look at it from his shoes and try not to get to mad about it.
You can't please all the people all the time, so just do your best and live with the rest.

 

[artifact]

Regardless if you feel offended by religious expression in public or not. I feel sorry for those of you who don't have something to believe in or to comfort you in these dire times. I am glad I believe in God and I am not afraid to admit it in public. My freedoms given to me by the United States have been bought with the blood of many Americans. I will not disgrace thier memory by being ashamed of showing my religion in public or any other rights that I have like voting. Those same Americans gave you the right to speak your mind without being jailed when they don't agree with the majority. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill and should take a step back. Look at the bigger picture here and Thank God or whatever you believe in that you are alive and you still have your freedoms like the right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness.
God Bless the USA

 

[Apollo]

I'm afraid the fact that he's the president does make a difference. His words represent the country, and I don't want to be represented with religious ideas and words that don't reflect me and many others in this country (like FoR).

He's free to pray in private, or even when he's among people, or in church, or any other time. But when he's on national television, talking to and for the people, he shouldn't be talking religion.