Cheater, cheater.....

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Ura

Guest
well thats horribly disgraceful. If I were being screwed like that, "jim" would have alot more to be worried about then someone trying to get him railed out of the DCI. What a jerk...
 
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Jake74

Guest
I hate to read stuff like this, it always reminds me that there are terrible people in this world, and that sucks...
The thing I don't understand is WHY? Why does this guy do this? It's not like he wins any of the tourneys he "qualifies" for. I really can't understand why some people do things just because they can.
To everyone out there: Remember, it's just a game! If you cheat, what's the point of playing?!
 
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Istanbul

Guest
This is why I will never compete seriously. I've said it a hundred times:

THE DCI IS A JOKE.

They're slow, apathetic, dim-witted, irresponsible, unconcerned, uncreative, and won't enforce their own rules. I have *zero* respect for the DCI as an organization because of a hundred horror stories like this one. It's not that the DCI doesn't know that things like this are going on, they simply don't care. Easier to turn a blind eye, only stop the stuff that's publically visible to anyone paying even casual attention, and ignore the complaints of anyone who isn't likely to cause noteworthy negative publicity. Easier to treat it like a business; screw the little guy, you know where your paycheck comes from.

Don't expect any action from the DCI. I don't.
 
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Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Well, it certainly sounds bad. Very bad.

It would be interesting to know if there is some sort of verification, like written documentation of contacts with the DCI and their responses. Also all the past tourney reports that "Jim" was in and verify with the participants whether or not they'd played.

Not knowing anything else, it just reinforces the perception that the DCI should be independent of WOTC.
 
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Istanbul

Guest
Wow. So, after...like, ELEVEN complaints...the DCI finally steps in and says something. Once someone goes public with a gripe and starts generating negative publicity.

Like I said: the DCI is a joke. They run Magic like the business it is; if a complainer isn't actually generating negative publicity, ignore him.
 
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Ura

Guest
what a joke....
as far as I'm concerned those who allowed it to happen for so long are as guilty as those who commited the acts *cough cough mr. donais cough*
Watch, this will be dealt with and brushed under the rug very quickly.
 
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Gizmo

Guest
Bashing the DCI is such an easy thing to do.

They`re job is too hard to do. If they move on somebody and get it wrong they get sued for a LOT of money. Thye got stung once by a lawyer who`s son got caught cheating. he pointed out correctly that the DCI`s evidence wouldn`t stand up in court and would they like to go to a court and find out. DCI said they wouldn`t, thankyou very much, gave them a bunch of money and told thme not to play again.
 
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Ura

Guest
If the DCI is afraid to enforce their own rules then perhaps they should rewrite the rules to be more defined and easily enforcable making their job easier and them more efficient at it.
What did the lawyers son do anyways? The "insuficient randomization" violation or something?
 
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Goku

Guest
Perhaps, if the DCI cannot run correct tournament, and enforce their rules correctly, more drastic action should be taken.

Perhaps I am misinformed, but I wonder... why should the DCI be the only Magic league? I know they are with WotC, but why has there never been any other leagues formed that did enforce the rules? And if there has been, (I have no information), why did they not last and/or why have they not been greatly publicized?

(Remember, I have no information beyond what I know from personal experience [I've been playing since Revised], so if I am completely off-track, please tell me.)
 
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Gizmo

Guest
It`s not just about the DCI`s rules. If they said to somebody - "you`ve cheated, you`ve been frauding the tournament report system" then right there right then that guy can go get his lawyer and sue for defamation of character and possibly loss of earnings. To do what you want them to do the DCI would have to be above the law.

As for any other league - no ther body would be willing to front the millions and millions of dollars in prize support that the DCI does, seeing as the DCI sees no money back in return (money you pay for DCI events goes to the TO to arrange booking fees etc). Therefore the choice would be, if a rival league sprang up:
1) play in the DCI, where they have TONS of prizes, a tournament structure that supports all levels of play from FNM tot he MAsters, and world ranking system, and international competition.
2) Play in "Bobs Magic Emporium" which only covers half of Ohio, and which charges more for events but provides worse prizes than the DCI. Oh wait, they just got nobody registered to play except everybody banned from the DCI.

The DCI has a hard job to do, and it does it very very well.

As for the kid, I think they went in planning to get caught cheating because the Dad knew he`d be able to sting WotC for the money.
 
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Ura

Guest
Welcome to America, the land of sueing and screwing people simply because you can.
Its really pitiful that someone would smack them with any kind of law suit for getting caught cheating and being accused of it. So many people try to show magic as a "mind sport" like chess, yet in other sports you don't see athletes or competitors sueing the leagues and referee for penalty calls, there wouldn't be sports competitions of any kind at all if that happened.
If thats all the kid and dad went in to do then they should be flogged and sent to live in poverty for their greed and abusiveness.

It should be as simple as: You cheated, you got caught, we got proof, you get punished. End of freaking list.:mad:

We all know that there are subtle loop holes in rules enforcement system, obviously that kids miserly father found one. But I do really believe that the DCI could do a better job then it does currently by looking over the rules system and revising it, then sticking to their guns about it.
I'll grant that some rules are difficult at best to enforce such as the "insufficient randomization" one. But others should be very simple, and I would think that mass long term fraud of the reporting system would be one of them as that kind of information should be easy to gather, especially when accessories to the violation step forward to admit it and come clean.
In this case the guy could do nothing with his lawyer because of the level of evidence against him. Thats like saying I can go into a T2 tournament with a deck packing bolts and StP. I get caught cheating, the proof is blatantly obvious, but I can sue them now for calling me a cheater, what sense does that make?:confused:
I really don't think this is asking for a utopia situation here.



I'm done ranting now...
*wanders off to bed*
 
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Istanbul

Guest
Then the DCI should be disbanded.

I'm quite serious.

If the DCI can't do the job for which it was created, it should be disbanded. That, or it needs to put up a specific rule that says that they reserve the right to prevent anyone from competing for any reason. By doing so, they'd be able to remove anyone they needed to remove.
 
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Jake74

Guest
I just don't understand how someone could possibly win a lawsuit for defamation about a GAME!!
Come on! It is just a game... how can being penalized or banned from a game be slanderous? That is absolutely ridiculous...
I agree with Istanbul that the DCI should have the absolute right to ban anyone that they want... maybe everyone should sign an agreement before they can play in a tourney that says they can be banned if the DCI decides...
The main problem is the DCI really doesn't have the power they require to keep this system straightened out... and they should.
 
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Gizmo

Guest
The DCI CAN do the job for which it was created - run tournaments and punish cheaters. But it has to get an overwhelming amount of evidence before it moves to penalise somebody it thinks is cheating. You have to remember that the DCI`s rules enforcement body is basically just Mike Donais, not Clint Eastwood.

In the case on Mindripper ask yourself why this guy has managed to go on frauding reports for so long - because everybody else covered for him. While the only people in the postion to expose cheating choose not to do so the DCI cannot really act effectively. Don`t blame the DCI so much, blame the DCI members who would rather whinge about how bad a job the DCI does instead of playing their own part - and there a great many of those.
 
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Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
As the reply by the DCI stated on Mindripper, they did not have the "details sufficient enough" earlier to prove cheating by the TO. So now the onus is on the accuser to provide documentation of correspondence that he had with the DCI before he wrote the article, to show he was doing everything he could before writing the article (what I said in my first post).

I'm not sure if it's the same thing, but I remember from the Dojo that someone from Europe tried to start his own ranking system for Magic and was told by the DCI to "cease and desist" fro reasons I can't remember. Thus, so far I don't think it's a matter of "prize support" or "no one registering" as Gizmo implies; if the demand is there and people are dissatisfied with the way the DCI runs things, they will probably go to another well-run league. Remember, the DCI has a 7 years headstart but if another league proves to be effective, I predict people will go. However, from the Dojo memory I think the DCI wants to keep the monopoly.

And I think there is more instances of players suing leagues in other sports than realized (getting banned/penalized for off-field behavior comes to mind).
 
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Neil Rigby

Guest
I think doping is the best analogy, virtually every time an athlete gets banned for steroids or EPO or something there is a legal action to clear his name.
 
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