Freedom of Stupidity

[turgy22]

I'm getting a little sick of the long delays between posts and updates on the front page replies to Bill's "The Wizards World" article, so I thought I'd move the discussion here. A recap up to this point:

I said:

First of all, I’m not attacking the Pro Tour. Reread Bill’s article and reread my post. I’m attacking Wizards. I’m attacking the bias towards the Pro Tour and the way Wizards is selling it.

You talk about elitism. I like that, because that’s the point I’m trying to make. You say that I have elitism somewhere in my reply. Please quote me, because I’m not seeing it. The only thing I can see interpreted as elitism is my little list making fun of the Pro Tour. Yes, I’m making fun of the Pro Tour. In the past, I’ve made fun of casual players, writers and myself. I don’t think I’m better than anyone, but I like making jokes. Just because they’re not funny doesn’t mean I’m going to stop trying.

Back to the subject of elitism. Here’s what you say:
“Know your facts! Know your history!”
“Sometimes I forget that people on here aren't MTG historians such as I am. Or, they don't have the background depth, from tournaments, writing, traveling, etc to properly speak on this subject.”
“So, yeah, I quess(sic) I see the silly kid in you that I once used to be.”

Here’s what I say:
“I can't judge a person for the way they choose to live their life”
“You do your thing, I'll do mine.”

Elitism – n. 1) The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2a) The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
-Dictionary.com

Now, which one of us comes across sounding like an elitist?
You tell me that I must know about the history of Magic before commenting on it – that I am not entitled to my opinion because I do not have the proper knowledge to form one.
That’s the whole point I’m trying to make!
I don’t care about the Pro Tour and I never will. Twenty years from now, I still won’t give a damn about the Pro Tour and you’ll still be calling me a silly kid. I don’t want to learn about its history or try to qualify for it or anything else. But people like you and Rosewater and others at WotC tell me that I must.
And that’s where I draw the line.

Call me ignorant about the history of the Pro Tour or the lives of the players or the amount of time and dedication needed to be successful. You will be absolutely correct! I can admit that. But do NOT tell me that I need to learn these things.

You don’t need to spend ten years in a seminary to form a religious belief. You don’t need to be an expert in national history to vote. You don’t need to study art history to enjoy drawing. And I certainly don't need to know the history of Magic to enjoy the game. All these things help. But they’re hardly necessary. So don’t tell me that I need to know the history of the Pro Tour before I’m allowed to criticize it.

That, my friend, is elitism.

Houts replied:

"That, my friend, is elitism."
Actually, not at all.

But, you've missed the whole point of what you were sayin.g

*shrug*
I can't change you about your attitude on the history, but if you utter ignorance, I will call it out.

*throws two cents on the ground*

-HOUTS

TheAny chimed in:

"You don’t need to spend ten years in a seminary to form a religious belief. You don’t need to be an expert in national history to vote. You don’t need to study art history to enjoy drawing. And I certainly don't need to know the history of Magic to enjoy the game. All these things help. But they’re hardly necessary. So don’t tell me that I need to know the history of the Pro Tour before I’m allowed to criticize it."
Um, this rationale is everything wrong with the world. Yes, actually, you do need to have a solid background on something before you cast any kind of judgement on it or even form any intelligent opinion regarding it. Now, if you want to form a simple opinion - go ahead, be my guest. Opinions are everywhere and even the most rotten mind has one. It doesn't mean it is valid, it doesn't mean it's right, moral, accurate, or even justified.

To put it in other words: yes, you do need to have the knowledge on a subject to even mention that subject.

Kthxbye.

And Houts agreed:

I agree with TheAny said above.
People love to talk without thinking, and believe they have a 'right' to throw their opinion in a subject without knowing WTF they are talking about.

*sigh*

-HOUTS-

 

[turgy22]

Thanks, TheAny, for an actual reply with substance. Fair enough. Yes, you need some knowledge on a subject to form an opinion on it. That's why I used extreme cases to illustrate my point. You need some knowledge, but you don't need to be the most knowledgeable person in the world. If that were the case, only one person would be allowed to voice their opinion on any given subject and all discussion would cease.

So my question is where do you draw the line? Should only the most knowledgeable people in the world be allowed to express their opinions? How do we decide who these people are?

As an engineer, I know that some of the greatest scientific breakthroughs came from students with very limited knowledge who dared to question the authority of the established scientists. That's why I think everyone can and should voice their opinions. If these opinions are totally off-base, rational people can simply shrug them off. On the other hand, if they make a valid point, some people will accept them, add to them or at least make an effort to refute them. Then again, some people will just be bothered by them.

I find it humorous that HOUTS keeps calling me ignorant despite the fact that I am the only person in this discussion that actually cited sources for my claims. I like analysis. Saying I'm wrong doesn't prove anything.

 

[Spiderman]

Sorry about the delays; I didn't know it'd be such a "hot topic" (I usually check the reply queue every couple of hours).

 

[TomB]

And I check it maybe once a day during weekends...<shrugs>...Please bear with us, as we have real lives too...

 

[turgy22]

Sorry guys. I wasn't trying to insult you. I think the moderaters do a great job on here. I'm just impatient. Also, I didn't want to keep going back to the original article, then scroll down the page, then click the link to show all replies, then formulate another reply and then post it and then have to wait a couple hours before anyone else can see my reply.

Please bear with us, as we have real lives too...

And I'm just trying to make them a little bit easier...

 

[Larcen26]

Well...I am almost flattered that my article sparked this kind of controversy...

I know where I fall on most of these arguments, and that is right alongside Turgy, but I can also see, to an extent, where HOUTS is coming from too. Especially in the venue of "casual vs. competitive vs. tournament"

But as for the "elitism" issue, I have no idea where to fall. Is the more informed person always correct? Yes and no. Is the less informed always wrong? Again, yes and no. Information is a funny thing, it is always colored by personal views. One person may have read every book on the holocaust ever written and still believe that it never happened.

I think David Letterman actually made a very interesting point (oddly enough) when he said to O'Riley (this is more or less a quote) "You know more than me, I can't argue against you, but I am pretty much sure that 60% of what you say is crap." Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and to voice that opinion, but it is always better to speak with the best information available to you. That is where I completely agree with HOUTS.
But where I very much disagree, is in his belief, or statement, that Turgy, is not informed. Eric has stated his views in a very succinct manner, with both facts and (what I believe to be) common sense.
The one thing that most sticks out at me in HOUTS's responses is where he says:

I remember being just like you. Playing with friends, judging those 'tournament' players and uncaring about 'winning' a stupid card game. In other words: ignorance.

Then, I cared one day.

So this says to me, that not caring about "winning" is ignorant, and caring is "enlightenment"? That seems to me to be a much more opinion based argument than Turgy's.
So, and I know I am poking a bear when I say this, but HOUTS, while I don't think that 60% of what you say is crap, I think that at least 60% of what you say is opinion. Opinion colored by lots of experience? Obviously, yes. But opinion nonetheless.
Would you drop all of your opinions if Mark Rosewater said that they were different than his? Or stop voicing yours? I feel fairly certain that he knows more about Magic than you do...
So ultimately, I'm sorry, but nothing you can say will make us blindly drop our own opinions for yours simply becasue you said we should.

 

[HOUTS]

So, and I know I am poking a bear when I say this, but HOUTS, while I don't think that 60% of what you say is crap, I think that at least 60% of what you say is opinion

Guys, guys, this is why I call this site a pile of liberal elitism.
You're getting off the subject.

You all forgot I am wrote an article unifying Compeitive and Casual Players (Tm). THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MERE SECOND. The dreaded HOUTS did this.

The original point was the supposed "facts" to back up the ignorant attacks on Pro Players. I mean, after all the discussions, and articles, I found it just stupid for Turgy to do.
*shrug*
Yes, I know what I am talking about. Yes, I have opinions.
Facts vs. Opinions?
Seperated.

Please reread everything I said. It very clear.
And, no, I wasn't trying to make a big thing over this.
I've given up trying to educate or inform on this topic: MTG History.
I've grown weary of trying to keep topics on the same path.


-HOUTS-

 

[Killer Joe]

Quote:
"Blah, blah, blah......"

 

[turgy22]

Please reread everything I said. It very clear.

Great quote. Here's some more:

I’m not attacking the Pro Tour. ... I’m attacking Wizards.

I’m not attacking the Pro Tour. ... I’m attacking Wizards.

I’m not attacking the Pro Tour. ... I’m attacking Wizards.

I’m not attacking the Pro Tour. ... I’m attacking Wizards.

I'm not quite sure how many times I have to say it. However, I do enjoy lively discussions on debatable topics and I really enjoyed the direction the original thread was taking.

I still disagree with the way Wizards presents the Pro Tour.
I still disagree with the contention that I should be more knowledgeable about Pro Tour history.
I still want to know how much knowledge is needed on a subject before being allowed to express an opinion.
I still disagree that this site is a pile of liberal elitism. I only see elitism from one person on this board.
And I still want to see some sources cited.

I like to feel challenged by a good discussion and right now, none of my claims have been refuted by any legitimate rebuttal. I guess I'll go take a nap or something.
:yawn:

 

[Larcen26]

You all forgot I am wrote an article unifying Compeitive and Casual Players (Tm). THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MERE SECOND. The dreaded HOUTS did this.

And I am all for that...as I think are many people here
The moment I can go to a tournament with my casual deck and not be treated like a second class citizen simply because I don't want to play Ponza or Sligh or Affinity or Tooth and Nail...Then the Savannah Lions shall lay down with the cLAMBassadors (only card with Lamb in it)

The original point was the supposed "facts" to back up the ignorant attacks on Pro Players.

Now I don't know what threads you have been reading...honestly I really don't. I would like to see one single quote from any of these posts that attacks Pro Players.
As I and many others have said repeatedly, let the Pro tour and the pro players be...But I feel that Wizard's should just let us not care about them if we don't want to...That's all...

And I know that this may offend your sensibilites, as I am obviously ignorant to the important role that the Pro Tour and Pro Players have had in the History of the game...and you know what? If that is what you think, I am truly fine with it.

 

[HOUTS]

I'm bored too.
You attacked WOTC=Pro Tour.
This is obvious. You should learn how companies work
I'm bored, like you, because I have to read this gibberish and shake my head at the clear statements I made.
Want facts? Go read some.

Lastly, you've got the board titled wrong:

Stupidity relates to having knowledge of something but ignoring it and doing likewise.

Ignorance is not knowing the knowledge.

It is more offensive to be stupid but never ignorant.

-HOUTS-

 

[turgy22]

WOTC=Pro Tour

Here's another statement I disagree with. Wizards of the Coast and the Pro Tour are not mutually exclusive. The PT is a subset of Wizards. It can not survive without them, but Wizards can survive without the PT. That much is evident in the way they produce cards. They are trying to market to all players, not just the ones who show up at tournaments. That's why they define their little Timmy, Johnny, Spike player profiles and try to appease each group. If WotC's only responsibility was to support the PT, then why do only a small percentage of cards ever make it into the top decks?

Stupidity relates to having knowledge of something but ignoring it and doing likewise.

Indeed. Yeah... I think I labeled this thread correctly.

 

[HOUTS]

"Indeed. Yeah... I think I labeled this thread correctly"


No, that is incorrect, becuase you are ignorant on many subjects.
Sory bud...

 

[Gizmo]

From my experience of knowing literally hundreds of pro and semi-pro players I can say that if you have any serious intention of getting to the gravy train you quit your job and you sit at home and play Magic roughly 24/7 with other similar-minded players.

You can make the Pro Tour without doing this, but there's a world of difference between making it to a few Pro Tours and being 'a pro player' and in my opinion that difference is commitment of time in preparation.

It's the step I've never particularly wanted to make, but the one time I DID put down everything else in my life and do nothing but play Magic with my test group we got massively better and ended up 4 out of 5 of us qualifying for that Pro Tour, and made two Top-8s at the related Grand Prix (including beating Budde in the final). If you want to be a genuine Pro then your job is Magic, maybe Magic and Magic card sales, but basically it's just Magic.

 

[turgy22]

Thanks for the information, Gizmo. I suspected as much, but apparently I'm too ignorant to make the same statement that you have.

You say that to become a genuine Pro, you have to basically make Magic your life. Agreed. But it's also possible to be a "semi-pro" as well. I'm thinking that most of the people playing in the Pro Tour fall into this category. For them it's still a hobby and although they won't be on the gravy train, they can still enjoy the experience and possibly do well in a couple tournaments. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of these points.

Now back to the original point: Do you think Wizards of the Coast tries to sell the PT in such a way that they want people to view it as a part-time, come-and-have-fun-and-maybe-win sort of event? Or do you think that they encourage players to aspire for greater things, that may only be attainable if they dedicate a large portion of their lives to the game?

 

[Killer Joe]

Now back to the original point: Do you think Wizards of the Coast tries to sell the PT in such a way that they want people to view it as a part-time, come-and-have-fun-and-maybe-win sort of event? Or do you think that they encourage players to aspire for greater things, that may only be attainable if they dedicate a large portion of their lives to the game?

"...that they want people to view it as a part-time, come-and-have-fun-and-maybe-win sort of event? "

Maybe WIZ Co. DOES think of these things, I don't know though.

As for the other choice; they do have nice ca$h prizes you can recieve for winning, so maybe that's more to the truth.

 

[evan d]

While you might need knowledge of the games history to accurately criticize it, you don't need that knowledge to know what you find enjoyable and what you don't find enjoyable. Some of my favorite songs are not in english.

 

[HOUTS]

experience of knowing literally hundreds of pro and semi-pro players I can say that if you have any serious intention of getting to the gravy train you quit your job and you sit at home and play Magic roughly 24/7 with other similar-minded players.

You can make the Pro Tour without doing this, but there's a world of difference between making it to a few Pro Tours and being 'a pro player' and in my opinion that difference is commitment of time in preparation

Wow, this couldn't be farther from the actual truth....

Amazing, the ignorance is spreading...

 

[Jigglypuff]

If you're so knowledgable, HOUTS, what is the truth then?

(- Steve -)

 

[Notepad]

Great quote. Here's some more:

Please reread everything I said. It very clear.

I really don't want to weigh in on the argument, but I'd like to say attacking Houts on the merit of his typos seems a little absurd. Sure, that line may have been a bit like "All Your Base" especially because of the context, but damn, we all make typos.

Hell, I used to be a reporter. You'd expect a reporter to be good at writing, and I was. But, the number of typos I made was tremendous. Usually because of the rushed nature, as well as getting used to seeing all types of writing.* Can you imagine how many press releases written by city officials and elected fatcats had major errors in them? A lot. You get used to just reading right through stuff like that and it somehow creeps into your own writing.

Why I'm even going on about this, is I think Houts said earlier he was a teacher. Holy moly, the number of mistakes on student papers he must have to see!

And to Houts: You got married? Hot damn, she must be a complete saint to put up with you! j/k

*: And in my case, getting lazy thanks to editors who'd correct all my haste-induced errors. A habit that I still can do suffer it from. See?