This is about giving deck advise.

[Hellion]

I consider myself an average Magic player. I play casual Magic even though I have friends that persuade me to join tournaments. I refuse cause I think I'm just not good enough. *Lol*

Because my peers think I'm pretty good, they constantly ask me for deck advice. They would go asking like:" Would this card do well in this deck? How about this one?"

When I give them my suggestion, they would contradict me by saying:" BUT blah blah blah....." I try my best to be understanding but this kind of "torture" wears me down. I'm sure it would wear you guys down too. It's only a matter of time that I break.

I did, a few hours ago.

I told off my friend on the phone about the basics of deckbuilding. He's trying to build a B/U MBC deck for the MBC tourney this weekend. For the past fortnight, he has been asking me for deck ideas, suggestions and the lot. I have been patient till just now. After lecturing him about basic deckbuilding, I told him that he need not ask me for advice for every ****ing card he adds into his deck.

"Just put it in and test it out." Was what I last said.

A few hours later, before I was going to doze off, another friend (this lad is very much more irritating) called me and asked me," Do you think my W/R Extended Ponza (?) deck is good?"

I told him to **** off and go ask his other friends, who I think are so much more better than moi 'cause he always uses my opinions to compare with theirs. More contradictions?....no doubt he was surprised that I was pissed. Well I am 'cause too often the advisee are people who have access to the internet, have bookmarks for websites like The Dojo, Starcity, Magic Campus ect, have been playing Magic for a few years and still ask dumb questions like:" Should a mono blue MBC deck run Stinging Barrier?"

or

"What if I meet Blue?"
"What if I meet Green"
"How about this other card....."
"John Doe said that this card is better."
"John Doe says that many people play with this other card."
"But this other guy plays with 4 Persecutes in his deck."

"If you know so much, why bother asking me at all?" Is what I always think after I get a rebuttal.

I'm a person who gives good deck advice. I know very well what works in a Ponza deck and what's doesn't. I know the ins and outs of a Replenish deck. It's all because I have mastered the first Magic Commandment.

"Thou shall master the art of basic deckbuilding."

I'm sad to say that many players don't have this and they are the ones who always give the other players headaches and they are the ones who always play netdecks. Actually they are also the same players who play rogue decks and have original ideas but lack the knowledge to build decks.

Do you guys out there believe that there are players who after playing Magic for a few years, still do not know how to build a Stompy deck? I'm disgusted by the amount of spoon feeding that the better players have been giving to those players who don't care to learn how to actually play Magic.

My purpose of this post is to ask you guys out there, how much advice is too much? And how to avoid being a walking deckbuilding encyclopedia?

Your experiences and suggestions are most welcome.


[Edited by Hellion on July 13th, 2000 at 12:09 PM]

 

[Cateran Overlord]

yeah, I can believe that there are people who have been playing for years and can't build basic Stompy. Why? Because I'm surrounded by them at my local store. I have the same problem you do, I know the basics of deckbuilding. People ask me for advice, I give it, then they contradict me saying "But such and such says that you should play 4 Morphlings in Accelerated blue. Finally I just say "Okay then, go use them if you want. Why did you ask me if you didn't want advice not from the Dojo."

What I;ve started doing is simple. Build insanely rogue decks that work very well, then play them. If you can win with rogue decks, then people will still ask you for advice, but you can tell them how to make extremely unorthodox changes to their deck. They won't contradict you always because they know that your rogue ideas do work out. Maybe you'll get another person to leave the Dojo and come to the CPA (I've gotten a few people to come here this way). You'll make the world a better place

 

[Hawaiian mage]

I have the exact oposit problem. All the players in my area are really stubborn. Untill about 6 months ago(when I started useing the internet for magic) every single player was playing this strang type of magic, where you draw cards untill you have 8 and you can play all your lands. All the decks were nothing but burn decks, and some players were getting boerd against playing the same thing all the time and just stopped playing. Fortunatly, when I made a deck with 4xYawgmoths Bargain/corrupt/drain life and a bunch of land(which remains undefeated to this day) most of them startedplaying tournement and realized that there was so much more then playing 8 games in 20 minits. But heres the real problem, their decks are 200+ cards. Everytime I build a new deck,which beets them roo easilly, the put the key cards of my deck intotheir without takeing anything out.

I know that they may be haveing more fun like that, but it's just hardand I don't know what to do. So I guess I don't know how to help you with your problem becuase I have never expirianced it. Sorry.

 

[The Undertaker]

I am definitely not an expert on deck building myself but I can tell you that I am always appreciative of any advice that is given to me. It truly irritates me when somenone asks me for advice just to contradict everything I say. Like you said, why bother asking in the first place.

I have been playing for many years, casually, and have some pretty fair ideas on how to construct decks. I do, however, always enjoy hearing others ideas as it helps me grow as a Magic player. I think you learn from experience but perfect by learning from others experiences.

I would say, be willing to share ideas with those that will respect your information.

 

[Apollo]

I have a similar problem with my brother. He always asks me for advice on decks. When I make a suggestion, he contradicts me ("But I like this card!"). When I try to explain it, he pays no attention. After reading this, I think I'll just make suggestions and leave it at that. If he wants to take my advice, OK. If not, that's fine too. When he's ready to ask why I told him to do this, I'll explain my decision.

Don't snap at your friends like that, though. They'll just end up mad at you and you'll end up in a fight over something pretty trivial. Just give them your advice and if they just contradict you, then don't give them advice anymore. If they ask you to explain your advice, then you're making progress.

Apollo

 

[Phyrexian Pie-Eater]

Sounds like the gimping bird has a point. What i do when people ask me for deck advice( not to often anymore since every1 in my area left the game bout a year ago) is give them what they need, and not what they want. I tell them the how the card works in the whole of the deck, how having this number is helpful, and how they should generaly use it. i don't have people who ask me to custom make an entire deck for them, but usually ask for a few cards to get the deck kickin a$$. works for me, it might just work for a non mechanized fleshling as well.

 

[Chaos Turtle]

When someone asks for my deck advice, I give it to them as best I can. I often debate cards, especially with more experienced players, and sometimes find that there's something I hadn't considered.

In the case of the player who is insistent on using a certain card ("But Gabriel Angelfire is my dad!") I let them do whatever they want. I tell them, "Well, it's your deck, and if you totally dig Gabe, then go for it." Then I'll try to help them out with making other improvements.

Now, there is a disclaimer here. It's that, if you ask my advice and don't take it, then go get your whiney hiney whipped at the local tournament, do not come back to me and say "Your deck didn't work." Cuz it ain't my deck, kid.
Then again, if you do take it and get your whiney hiney whipped, it still ain't my deck. So sorry.

 

[Major Crime]

Have the same sort of problem with playing games around the times people are building & testing Tourny decks.
I made a deck which was designed to take out rebel & merc' decks, it was just small fast green, no mana creatures, but had four Cursed totems.
Now the pro-players in our group would not play me for practise, as it was not a tourny deck, so they sat they talking about how the deck plays against deck type a, b , & c. (fill in the names of three top tourny decks) This went on for a couple of weeks.
Now most of the decks were rebel decks, or blue bounce using spell shapers & masticores. When I did get a game against some of the semi pro's my deck was going on average 2-1 against most of the tourny decks. So it did end up that one or two of the pro's who had laughed at my deck idea, ended up asking to play against it, & I knew of one who redid his side board with Cursed Totems & artifact kill to take them out of play.

My main point is that a tourny, cames down to 3 or 4 main deck ideas, so play testing is limited & can be done by talking a deck through.

2nd point if you go to a tourny, find out the decks most likely to be there, come up with a rogue deck which takes them down. Play it, if you do bad, hang in there, do not walk, as you may pick up late wins, which will not help you, but they may piss off a main deck player. Who may later think about that wierd rogue deck which cost me the tourny.

3rd. All main decks are classed as a rogue deck when they first make out good at a tourny. then they get copied on the net. This is the point most pro players seem to forget.

Hope that all makes sense to you, I've just reread it & I do not get any of it, as it's a bit long. Well lunch is also over, so back to work.

 

[Gizmo]

Well I`ve taught insane numbers of people how to play, deckbuild, and because I`m a good player I get requests for info all the time from people who know how to play, but cannot deckbuild.

I think deckbuilding is a skill not many people learn these days, which was not true 5 years ago.

I am very conscious of a desire to avoid spoonfeeding, not because it takes my time (I guess I`m just too nice ) but because that does not add to their own ability to be creative. The compromise I have found is to advise them by leading them through the decision process - you know what the answer is and you could just say "Yes, obviously", but I prefer to make them think about it and come to their own conclusions.
Why is your deck losing?
So what do you need this card to do?
What other cards might do the job?
Which is the best choice?
Why?
Isn`t Card-Y better in this circumstance?
Why?

They get info, and hopefully they`ll remember the method and use it in future. I really enjoy sitting down with someone for an hour and designing a deck from scratch with them. You`ve probably built the deck yourself long ago in your head (and know why it isn`t that great), but they`ll come away thinking it`s their own idea.

I see it as my duty to teach people how to make decisions, rather than what is right and what is wrong. I have a friend who is like a computer - everything he sees or hears about how to play Magic goes straight in and he can repeat that verbatim during matches, so that 80% of the time he plays flawlessly. But then 20% of the time he comes across a situation where nobody has told him what to do, and he plays as though he has never even seen a Magic card before in his entire life.
ie, he is facing No Mercy for the first time (playing with Rebels) and chooses to keep churning out Gliders and attacking for 2 each turn, replacing it with another from his Ramosian Lieutenant. It doesn`t even occur to him that he can attack with the Masticore he has in his hand for 4 each turn, and simply regenerate it.


Don`t just tell them, TEACH them.

PS.
Chaos Turtle said:
"Then again, if you do take my advice and get your whiney hiney whipped, it still ain't my deck. So sorry."

No, man - they were obviously playing it wrong.

 

[manchot_13]

Having played almost entirely casually... except against a couple of decks run by my friends (stompy/bargain/etc.) i don't know all the current deck types... so just out of curiousity... what is ponza?

sorry if i sound ignorant... i'm really not... really...

 

[Fire Slinger]

My best advice is to test, test, test. That's the only way I can make a great deck. I build a deck and just keep playing it until, it works everytime. That's why I don't play sealed or draft. I can't just take a bunch of cards and deck a winning deck out of them. I have a play and test and practice til my decks a good enough. I guess that is why I have never won a tournament. I usually make the top 6 with really weird decks. Next t2 tournament, I'm taking my tinker-like deck that uses Wishmongers and Mother of Runes to protect my creatures. I hope it works.

 

[Gizmo]

The key to playing wierd decks is to fully understand why the cards you are using are good. Wishmonger, for instance, is a superb card in any deck that is aggressive but poor in slower decks - it will almost always give advantage to the aggressive party as it can give evasion ability to both players and thus enforce a race scenario (where both players 'race' to deal 20 damage without actually interacting). The essential part of a Wishmonger deck is ensuring your deck will not be blocking, as Wishmonger makes it hard to block.

The ideal use of Wishmonger would be to play it against a creatureless/light deck that is dependent on targetted removal. That way your opponent is unlikely to be able to successfully race you, and you get maximium defense from the Wishmonger`s Prot.

-------

Ponza is an aggressive Red Land Destruction deck. Classically it spent turns 1 + 2 making small monsters, then turn 3-5 hitting you with them while blowing up your land to stop you playing your defense.
8-12 cheap monsters (1+2cc)
12-16 Land Destruction
0-2 Lightning Dragon or other similar big fat scary monster
Remainder burn spells to remove their cheap blockers (and life total when relevant)

Not currently a good deck, though - there is a tournament joke that the only thing a Ponza deck beats is other Ponza decks, and then only if it gets the first turn.