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Duel
Guest
Kind of, but you all know that card advantage itself is rarely enough, and card superiority must, to some extent, come into play. Right?
D
Duel
Guest
Okay, say next turn, Dave draws, lays a mountain, and scrolls peeaches. He then had adavantage, right?
A
Apollo
Guest
Well, Dave had 4 cards in his hand at that point, so if he Scrolls Peaches, chances are he won't hit it. If he does try it, Brian has to decide whether or not to sac it, and the game starts getting complicated. If Brian does sac it, then he takes three and ends up at 18, and Dave isn't in a bad situation. If he doesn't sac it, and the Scroll misses, Dave has no mana left, and is in big trouble. If he hits, Brian gains no life and Dave hits for 3, bringing Brian down to 14 and Dave is in a great situation, cause Brian has nothing but 3 land. Dave has only played 1 burn spell, so he likely has another Bolt or two in his hand, and Brian is on a serious clock. As you can see, that scenario gets weird.
Anyway, as for the other part, why Deadguy wins, everything in the deck either deals damage or helps damage get through. With that, the card advantage before is enough. All the Deadguy deck really has to do is get the opponent down to 8 before they can burn them to death. And when that's all you have to do, creatures like Jackal Pup become great. Most decks just can't stop the weenies and stabilize quick enough. All of the expensive cards in the opponent's hand are useless. By the time they can Wrath, they're down to 8, and they're dead.
By making sure that the game is more or less decided by the fourth turn, the Deadguy player nullifies half of his opponent's deck. Every card the Deadguy player draws, is useful, but half of the cards his opponent draws will do nothing. When you have twice as many cards as your opponent, you will win.
Anyway, as for the other part, why Deadguy wins, everything in the deck either deals damage or helps damage get through. With that, the card advantage before is enough. All the Deadguy deck really has to do is get the opponent down to 8 before they can burn them to death. And when that's all you have to do, creatures like Jackal Pup become great. Most decks just can't stop the weenies and stabilize quick enough. All of the expensive cards in the opponent's hand are useless. By the time they can Wrath, they're down to 8, and they're dead.
By making sure that the game is more or less decided by the fourth turn, the Deadguy player nullifies half of his opponent's deck. Every card the Deadguy player draws, is useful, but half of the cards his opponent draws will do nothing. When you have twice as many cards as your opponent, you will win.
Z
Zadok001
Guest
Ok, let's assume that, shall we?
Dave played first, meaning he started with 7 cards in his hand. On the first turn, he dropped to 5. On the second, he went to 6, then to 4. On the fourth turn (the turn he draws and lays a Mountain), he remains at 4. Scrolling with 6 cards is hardly a guaranteed situation, I would find it more likely that he would instead _burn_ the Spike, via Incinerate or some-such, neh?
Assuming he does so, the life totals go to 18/20 (Brian/Dave, for those who forgot). Current board is 3 Mountains, one Jackal Pup, one Mogg Fanatic, and one Cursed Scroll (active) against 2 Forests, 1 Swamp. Yes, I would say Dave now has an advantage. But it should be noted that at this point in the game, Brian has quite a bit of manuvering room, at 18 life on turn 4 against Deadguy Red. So, again, this game is in the air. Brian still has 6 cards left in his hand (started with 8, to 7 from land, draws to 8, land and Wall, going to 7, draws, land and Spike, going to 6).
Basically, I'm just saying that it's unfair to say card advantage is everything.
Dave played first, meaning he started with 7 cards in his hand. On the first turn, he dropped to 5. On the second, he went to 6, then to 4. On the fourth turn (the turn he draws and lays a Mountain), he remains at 4. Scrolling with 6 cards is hardly a guaranteed situation, I would find it more likely that he would instead _burn_ the Spike, via Incinerate or some-such, neh?
Assuming he does so, the life totals go to 18/20 (Brian/Dave, for those who forgot). Current board is 3 Mountains, one Jackal Pup, one Mogg Fanatic, and one Cursed Scroll (active) against 2 Forests, 1 Swamp. Yes, I would say Dave now has an advantage. But it should be noted that at this point in the game, Brian has quite a bit of manuvering room, at 18 life on turn 4 against Deadguy Red. So, again, this game is in the air. Brian still has 6 cards left in his hand (started with 8, to 7 from land, draws to 8, land and Wall, going to 7, draws, land and Spike, going to 6).
Basically, I'm just saying that it's unfair to say card advantage is everything.
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Apollo
Guest
Huh? I'm sorry, but I don't understand where you got the "card advantage isn't everything" idea out of your scenario. Please enlighten my poor, confused mind.
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Zadok001
Guest
A clearer way to put it would be to say that 'advantage' is an undefined term. Saying 'I draw more cards, therefore I won' is unfair. Likewise, 'I played more cards, therefore I won' is unfair. At the point in the match that I left it, both players could be argued to be in the advantageous position - and one of them clearly has card advantage. So, card advantage obviously does not add to a game win. Dave, on the other hand, clearly has board advantaged ('played more cards, therefore') and that does not define his position as superior either.
[I just now read your post Apollo (the one right before my second analysis). We posted at the same time, so I missed it before. The thing I question is how people define 'advantage.' Some people argue, as I said before, that he who draws more cards wins. That statement is often clarified to he who PLAYS more cards wins. But really, there is something a lot deeper than that as well. A deck that relys on that theory is flawed, in my opinion, as they begin to assume things - and assuming is bad. I'm noticing as I go on here that my example is horribly flawed - it doesn't show what I'm trying to show very well. Unfortunately, I can't think of an example that does. It's a matter of point-counterpoint, I suppose. It doesn't matter if you play more cards, if your opponent plays the answers, you lose. (i.e., Dave plays little red things, Brian plays Walls and lifegain.)
I'm doing an absolutely God-awful job of explaining this, I know. But think about games in terms of card _effect_, rather than advantage, and you'll see what I mean. --Edited in by Zadok001]
[I just now read your post Apollo (the one right before my second analysis). We posted at the same time, so I missed it before. The thing I question is how people define 'advantage.' Some people argue, as I said before, that he who draws more cards wins. That statement is often clarified to he who PLAYS more cards wins. But really, there is something a lot deeper than that as well. A deck that relys on that theory is flawed, in my opinion, as they begin to assume things - and assuming is bad. I'm noticing as I go on here that my example is horribly flawed - it doesn't show what I'm trying to show very well. Unfortunately, I can't think of an example that does. It's a matter of point-counterpoint, I suppose. It doesn't matter if you play more cards, if your opponent plays the answers, you lose. (i.e., Dave plays little red things, Brian plays Walls and lifegain.)
I'm doing an absolutely God-awful job of explaining this, I know. But think about games in terms of card _effect_, rather than advantage, and you'll see what I mean. --Edited in by Zadok001]
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Duel
Guest
Right, so you agree, that card superiority is key. So deadguy, which generates neither an huge amount of card advantage nor card superiority, wins why, exactly?
A
Apollo
Guest
I would argue that it generates both card advantage and card superiority. It has card advantage because all of the opponent's high-cost spells are useless. It has card superiority in the early game because it plays cards and its opponent doesn't (ie, if you have a Pup and your opponent has nothing, you have card superiority).
That's why the games are always decided by the fourth turn. After that, Deadguy's opponent has both card advantage and card superiority. But in those first four turns, Deadguy has both, and that's when it wins.
That's why the games are always decided by the fourth turn. After that, Deadguy's opponent has both card advantage and card superiority. But in those first four turns, Deadguy has both, and that's when it wins.