Collecting and Investment Questions

[Crackdown]

Hope this is the right section, Spidey.

I'm interested in exploring the acquisition of Magic P9 cards for long-term investment (5+yrs). If I decide to proceed, there will be a fairly sizeable amount dedicated to acquisition. I'm only interested in high-quality cards in high-quality condition.

I'd like some help with the following:

1. Who do I hire to authenticate the cards and possibly grade them in the beginning?

2. Where are the best places to acquire the cards? I'm assuming this would be tournaments, but perhaps there are others. Would authenticators be at these tournaments or would I bring my own?

3. Are there any reliable statistics on Magic's popularity and the numbers who play Vintage format in tournaments?

Thanks.

[Got the wrong section again, Spidey?]

(Don't worry 'bout it - Spidey)

 

[orgg]

If you want guarenteed P9 cards, I'd say buy at SCG. It's the top price you'll pay, but they are reliable for having real cards and not fakes. Getting them elsewhere might end up badly.

 

[Mooseman]

I would recommend doing a lot of research on the cards themselves (ie. condition, how to tell they are real, etc...) and sellers. But in the end you will have to decide to trust whoever you buy them from.

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

Also you could try conventions, if they still exist. That way you get to see the card in person. Would be a bit more effort though.

 

[Spiderman]

Hmm. I didn't think of that, but yeah, the conventions like DragonCon(?) where WOTC is sure to be is probably a good place. They might be able to authenticate your cards if you get them there and they have time.

 

[Crackdown]

Hmm. I didn't think of that, but yeah, the conventions like DragonCon(?) where WOTC is sure to be is probably a good place. They might be able to authenticate your cards if you get them there and they have time.

I wish that were true, but according to their website, they have a company policy prohibiting employees from authenticating cards. I can understand why. First, the liability issue is there. But, more importantly, the public relations disaster of authenticating a proven counterfeit could affect card values.

 

[Spiderman]

Oh. Well, makes sense

 

[Crackdown]

If you want guarenteed P9 cards, I'd say buy at SCG. It's the top price you'll pay, but they are reliable for having real cards and not fakes. Getting them elsewhere might end up badly.

SCG is certainly a possibility for some cards, although the premium in pricing is a bit steep.

I'm wondering if anyone has dealt with some of the other on-line card shops such as KardKastle or T&T, etc. for higher-priced cards? I don't mind paying a 10%-15% premium for certainty as a general rule.

 

[Killer Joe]

I'd say forget the price and consider what the effect would have on the quality of your gaming experience. If having the P9 (or P10 if you include The Library of Alexandria) is what'll make you happy then go-for-it!

 

[Mooseman]

Go to one of your local sanctioned PTQ's or GPT or Pre-releases and talk with the TO. They should have some dealers at the show. This way you could see the cards and talk to the people your buying from. Or just get some leads on where to buy locally.
I wouldn't buy something of this magnatude over the internet, even from a "reputable" site. Even they can hose you.

 

[Reverend Love]

Hi Crackdown,

I started collecting my P9 shortly before the explosion of Vintage's popularity. When Time Walks could be purchased for 130 bucks mint and Time Twisters were no kidding 50-60 bucks Stupid me though the last cards I got were the most expensive and AFTER their revival, Lotus and Recall. Here are some tips I learned.

Beta is the most expensive, most prone to being forged and if doing business on EBay chances of being ripped off are doubled.

Alpha curiously is cheaper then Beta and less likely to be forged, just as likely to be ripped off.

Here is how they forge Alphas and Betas…usually. Sanding down a Collecters Edition P9 and gluing it onto a sanded down normal magic card backing. CE have a funky back identifying them as CE. When combined with a little sanding of the corners and on a legit magic card back they are quite good fakes. There’s some rumors of high dollar printing going on as well. I once saw a guy buying stupidly expensive and mint Beta P9 and super high res scanning and printing equipment on EBay, no lie! Very suspicious.

Unlimited cannot easily be forged, is cheaper and generally you'll be competing with players as opposed to collectors when bidding (Collectors dish out more cash). So when attempting to win a bid they’re cheaper.

There's absolutely no question where to go for judging the quality of your cards.

Professional Sports Authenticators the de facto choice. They're the best no question. Each card is judged using a rating 1-10, sealed in a PSA case, and marked with a PSA number identifying your card in their database of rated cards. PSA 9-10 Magic cards are stupid expensive. A PSA9 to 10 Beta Black Lotus easily doubles in price. Many people make their money bidding on high risk sellers ( >40) feedback auctioning off mint P9. Only to get them P9 rated and triple to quadruple their investment. Here are some examples of PSA cards selling on Ebay:

Completed PSA Auctions

As to the sources for purchasing your cards obviously I've made several references to EBay. If your cautious, patient, and most of all do your homework you'll find some amazing deals. All it takes is time and a few well constructed searches to find what you’re looking for from someone honest.

I purchased my Unlimited Ancestral Recall from www.dacardworld.com. Hands down the best retailer online. SCGs doesn't hold a candle in comparison.

When I said do your homework I meant monitor the prices of your wanted cards vigorously. Run a gamut of pricing searches everyday on EBay and retailer websites. Every once in awhile there's a dramatic unforeseen dip/hike in card pricing. Retailers can be slow to move on the new pricing, this is your chance to snatch up a retailer card. I got my Recall 80 dollars less then what it should have been.

If your SUPER patient and fiscally responsible I recommend saving your loot and buying one of these doosies
They usually cost between 4000-5000 smackers. But then again your getting the whole set, all at once.

If your curious about spotting shady sellers let me know and I'll tell you what I've learned. There's a whole hell of a lot of signs.

 

[Crackdown]

If your curious about spotting shady sellers let me know and I'll tell you what I've learned. There's a whole hell of a lot of signs.

That was quite interesting, Reverend, thank you. Yes, I'm interested in spotting shady sellers of Magic cards. So far, all I've learned is to take a 30x pocket microscope and strong light source with me.

I have been working from the assumption that my initial purchases will be from reputable sellers such as StarCityGames. Obviously, they are not the only ones, but where do I hear about the others? I don't get much of a chance to frequent Magic tournaments in my area, but I suppose I could make a business trip for the right reason.

I began concentrating on less expensive items such as Force of Will and dual lands. I have not purchased any of these yet, since I'm not quite certain if I want to compete against collectors for the duals (e.g., Alpha, Beta) or the players (RV, UL). Between Unlimited and Revised, which will be the best going forward to own or will both seriously fall behind Alpha and Beta?

I spent some time reading the Wizards article on counterfeit Magic cards. I would really like to know more though. It seems that they didn't give any real information about differences in printing or card stock between editions that might be revealed by examination. Is there some place that discusses these issues and whether black light examination is revealing as it is with sports cards?

Finally, I went to the Dacard site and it looks interesting. I'm not sure that their pricing is all that different across the board than is StarCityGames. Are their differences with reputations? I've dealt with SCG in the past (and KardKastle) and been pleased.

Thanks again for taking the time to educate me.

 

[orgg]

One thing to note on the Collector's Edition faking: A bad faker will use a 'normal' Magic card instead of a Beta magic back.

If you've good eyesight, you can compare a Beta cardback (supposably darker than th newer cards) and a normal card back to see the differences. I don't have the eyesight, myself...

...a bad faker doesn't know/doesn't care. A 'good' faker will know this, and it's harder to catch (and prove that it's been done).