Boy Scouts

[Daggertooth]

I am an avid scouter. I've worked in a camp for 5 years going on 6, so scouting has been a major part of my life. At this moment the scouts are in a battle for survival. Congress and other organisations are trying to destroy Scouting. This pettition is supposed to protect the scouting organisation from those who wish to destroy it.

Daggertooth




Join the 184,657 who have already signed the
petition supporting the Scouts:

http://www.grassfire.net/scouts.asp?CID=2&PID=534014
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Dear friend of the Scouts,

Attacks against the Scouts are on the rise again. For
example, the LA City Council voted 11-0 to sever all formal
ties with the Scouts, and Broward County (Fla.) school board
banned the Scouts from using school facilities.

It's all because the Scouts have refused to cave in to the
pressure of "politically correct" groups who despise the fact
that the Scouts stand for faith and morality.

We must stand with the Scouts!

A friend of yours has already signed this petition and has
forwarded this message to you. Now, it's your turn to take a
stand and watch your impact grow with Grassfire.net's
breakthrough online service. Click here to sign:

http://www.grassfire.net/scouts.asp?CID=2&PID=534014
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Our goal is to deliver a QUARTER MILLION petitions to
Congress to rally support for a bill called the "Scouts Honor
Act." This bill will become law only if a groundswell of
support demands that the Scouts be protected! In addition,
we want to encourage United Way chapters to stop the
trend of de-funding the Scouts!

It takes just minutes to sign the petition and start your very
own "grassfire" on the Internet. Plus, we'll give you REAL
FEEDBACK on how many of your friends follow your lead.

Please sign today.

Grassfire.net
"Real Impact. Real Feedback. Real Results."

P.S. Our web site includes a list of United Way chapters that
have banned funding for the Scouts, as well as the text of the
"Scouts Honor Act." We need 65,343 more people
to sign to reach a QUARTER MILLION so we can flood
Congress with pro-Scouts support! Please sign today:

http://www.grassfire.net/scouts.asp?CID=2&PID=534014
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here</a>

 

[Baskil]

As a card carrying Eagle Scout and Vigil Honor member of the OA, I will gladly sign this petition. If it weren't for scouts, I have no idea what sort of person I would be today. It had a tremendous impact on my life (landing me scholarships, etc), and I am eternally grateful. Although I don't have the time to contribute my time as much lately, I will do anything I can to help out Scouting. In a world like we have today, Scouting becomes more and more important.

 

[FrigginRizzo]

Instead of wasting time petitioning the dreck of humanity in congress, why not just stay the course? As far as I've heard, the BSA is a private entity that accepts no government funds. How is that the government can get all up in the BSA's business again? And why should the BSA care what a bunch of politically correct nerds think? The LA city council is severing all ties? Talk about a ringing endorsement that you are indeed doing the right thing. And Broward county officials aren't exactly known for their common sense, now are they?

Dear BSA,

Let homosexuals be Scoutmasters or we'll, um, well, maybe we'll just yell at you and stuff.

Love,
The Politically Correct aka The Intellectually Retarded.

Or maybe I'm missing something entirely.

John Friggin' Rizzo
Made it all the way up to Webelos in pack 352, chief.

 

[Riva Iron-Grip]

damn. this again? well, i signed the petition. i was a scout. i made it to star/life, the higher one? think it's life. but yeah, i miss the scouts. the environment, camping, all the good stuff. but damn. i think that the scouts need to keep alive. well, gl

 

[Chaos Turtle]

Ex-Scout here. (1st Class, in case you care. I don't.)

So sorry to hear about your problems, dear old BSA, but here's a clue: the organizations, by and large, that are "de-funding" (whatever that is supposed to mean) you, are only following the rules.

The United Way has such a policy. The City of Los Angeles has such a policy. So does, Broward County, FL as well as many other cities, counties, munincipalities, townships, etc.

Under attack? That's absurd.
None of these has set out to "destroy" the Boy Scouts. Until the BSA fought so vigilantly to defend its right to discriminate, those same bodies supported the Scouts. The gave them money, meeting places, and other benefits.

See, if they are not allowed to discriminate against minority groups, whether by law or policy, and are also not permitted to fund -- or to permit use of their public property by -- organizations which discriminate against minority groups, then they cannot fund you.

Why?

Because you do discriminate against minority groups.

Funny, the Girl Scouts of America, which do not discriminate even against boys, don't seem to be struggling for survival. Maybe you boys ought to sell some cookies, or something.

It doesn't even matter whether the Scouts are right or wrong in their opinion of gays. Being a Private Organization, they are free to abide any opinions they like.

The Boy Scouts do not require the protection of the Congressional Act this "petition" supposedly supports. They are, by their own definition, a "private organization." That means that they are responsible for their own welfare. Congress will not pass an act which forces public institutions to support any private organization which violates theose institutions' policies. Even if it did pass such an act, it would be thrown out by the U.S. Supreme Court. It is, my friends, un-Constitutional.

In short, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

And check out the Act yourself. (click here) It only prohibits use of Federal Funds to discriminate against the Boys Scouts of America based upon the Scouts' beliefs. Well, none of the parties mentioned in the petition are using Federal Funds to do so.

So no, I will not sign this petition. It uses flawed logic and inflammatory language to make its point. By its nature, it's as idiotic as the "political correctness" movement that it is supposedly trying to fight.

Before you freak out and start flaming me, consider the fact that I never told you on which side of this issue I stand. Don't make assumptions. Hypocrisy is the enemy here, and it's only Hypocrisy that I've attacked.

 

[Spiderman]

I don't know too much about the issue, but what Chaos Turtle said sure makes sense to me.

Yes, Turtle, I will send you $1000 immediately...

 

[Daggertooth]

Yes the scouts discriminate, But it was for its own survival. I'm not sure the statistics anymore, But It was stated that over 4 major religions would pull out of the scouting program if gays were allowed to be scoutmasters. I forget the total, but it was over 75% of the participants. About 99% here in Utah. All because Congress dicided to try to regulate this Nonprofit Private Organisation.

They even tried to pass an unconstitional law to forcifuly Allow gay scout masters, which would have effectively destroyed the scouting program, We Bairly won by 1 vote. But in retaliation the government has said they would restrict the scouts use of Public land. Who is the Public land for? Everyone. If they can do that to the scouts they can do it to every Private organisation. Whats Big Briother trying to do now?

What your saying is that Congress can try to pass laws to effectivly destroy the scouting program, and the scouts can't do anything about it.

You bring up some good points. Congress Put the scouts into a "Dammed if you do Dammed if you don't" situation. Either they say they don't discriminate and loose virtualy all of its members, or they say yes we discriminate and loose are funding. If that can happen to one private organisation how about others?

I'll have to look for more info on that case with the gay scoutmaster. So I can put accurate stats.

Daggertooth

 

[Chaos Turtle]

I disagree with your assertion that Congress has put them in their current no-win situation. It seems to me, rather, that the religious organizations who threatened pull out unless the BSA does discriminate are the cause of the problem.
In fact, it's evident that the churches, not the government, are trying to dictate BSA policy. "Do as we tell you, or we pull out." It's lobbyism, plain and simple.

If they comprise 75% or more* of the membership, then it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask them to pay the bill.

I myself, while having a problem with discrimination against any minority, am willing to concede the positive influence Scouting has in many people's lives, and won't be too bent out of shape if the government decides to allow the Scouts to keep their land contracts.**

I only don't have a problem with this as long as Federal law does not specifically prohibit anti-gay discrimination.
Currently, it does in a sense, but it's just a Presidential Order that created the Federal non-discrimination rules (the ones were concerned with here, anyway).

In all the other cases, I'm on the side of the states, counties, and school districts whose laws and policies specifically prohibit subsidizing any group who discriminates against any of a number of minority groups.

They are just following their own laws, which do not specifically target the Scouts.

Why should the BSA get an exception?

*(I truly don't believe , by the way, that dropping the discriminatory policies would actually result in anything close to a 75% drop in membership. By and large, people would just not care any more than they care about gays in any other aspect of their lives.)

**(The Boy Scouts of America are permitted to use Federal lands for a number of their activites. They lease them often for free, or for a $1 per year stipend.)

 

[Daggertooth]

Okay, I looked everywhere for the article I read. I finaly found it. I must admit that I was wrong. It's not 75% of the scouts. IT IS virtualy all of utah though. I know I'm shooting myelf in the foot with this topic, but I love scouting. It has helped me throughout my life.

Daggertooth


here is the article.





Justices hear Scouts case
Outcome could affect sponsorship by LDS Church


By Laurie Asseo , Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON -- Confronting emotional issues of free expression and homosexuality, Supreme Court justices joined in a spirited debate
Wednesday over whether the Boy Scouts can bar gays from serving as troop leaders.
The outcome of the case could determine whether the LDS Church remains a sponsor of Scouting."Boy Scouting is so closely identified with
traditional moral values that the phrase 'he's a real Boy Scout' has entered the language," said lawyer George A. Davidson, arguing that the Scouts
had a constitutional right to oust New Jersey troop leader James[100] Dale[100] after learning he is homosexual.
"Mr. Dale had created a reputation for himself" by becoming publicly known to be gay, and that would harm his ability to be a role model to
Scouts, Davidson said.
But Dale's lawyer, Evan Wolfson, said the Boy Scouts are not an "anti-gay organization" and therefore Dale's presence did not burden the group's
message.
Wolfson added that Dale did not seek to use his position as a Scout leader to advocate homosexuality. Dale and his parents listened to the
arguments from the courtroom audience.
The justices had pointed questions for both sides.
Justice David H. Souter told Davidson, "Mr. Dale is not asking to carry a banner; he's saying, 'I'm not going to carry a banner.' "
"He put a banner around his neck" by leading a college campus gay-rights organization, Davidson responded.
Justice Antonin Scalia asked Wolfson why the Scouts should be required to accept as a leader "someone who embodies a contradiction of their
message, whether the person wears a sign or not."
Justice Stephen G. Breyer wondered aloud how courts should be expected to determine whether the Boy Scouts' opposition to homosexuality is
fundamental to their message. The Scouts require members to promise to be "clean" and "morally straight."
Justice Anthony M. Kennedy asked, "Who is better qualified to determine the expressive purpose of the Boy Scouts -- the Boy Scouts or the New
Jersey courts?"
Wednesday's argument was the last day for the current term, and the justices will decide by July whether the Scouts had the right to oust Dale.
New Jersey's highest court ruled that the Boy Scouts' ban on gay troop leaders violated a state ban on discrimination in public accommodations.
But the Scouts say the state law violates the organization's rights of free speech and free association under the Constitution's First Amendment.
Scouting officials aren't sure of what will happen to the organization if the court sides with Dale, but it is clear the organization could lose some of
its largest sponsors.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints --the largest single sponsor of Scouting units in the United States -- filed a brief in the case saying
it "would withdraw from Scouting if it were compelled to accept openly homosexual Scout leaders."
The National Catholic Committee on Scouting; the General Commission on United Methodists Men of the United Methodist Church; the Lutheran
Church-Missouri Synod; and the National Council of Young Israel, which joined the LDS Church in the friend-of-the-court brief, would also consider
the same.
"Government cannot regulate Scouting without unconstitutionally entangling itself in religion, for the simple reason that Scouting and religion
are themselves so deeply intertwined," the brief states.
"To be coerced to install a Scout leader who openly acknowledges his homosexuality would fundamentally disrupt the norm (that the faiths) seek
to instill in their impressionable youth. Yet that is precisely what the decision . . . would force BSA to do."
The brief, written by Von G. Keetch with the Salt Lake law firm of Kirton & McConkie law firm, noted the LDS Church sponsors more than
400,000 Scouts (second only to the Methodists) and 30,000 Scouting units nationwide (the most of any group).
Together, the five faiths joining the brief sponsor nearly half of all Scouts and Scouting units in America --about 1.2 million Scouts and more
than 50,000 Scouting units.
Boy Scouts of America spokesman Brian Thomas said he could not speculate on the impact the organization would have if the organization should
lose its LDS members.
"That's an issue to take up when the decision day comes. We've got to let the Supreme Court rule on this," Thomas said. "This is the position we
wanted to be in all along, to get a definitive decision on this matter, and once the Supreme Court has made its decision in late June or July, we will
go on to the next step."
At least two of the BSA's 69 executive board members are LDS -- President Thomas S. Monson, first counselor in the First Presidency, and Elder
Robert K. Dellenbach, a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy.
When asked what influence the church has had on Boy Scout policy over the years, Thomas said simply that the church is one of many sponsors.
"It's an organization based on all of its members," Thomas said of Boy Scouts of America. "I don't think any one organization has more sway than
the next."
K. Hart Bullock, director of LDS Scouting relationships for the Boy Scouts of America, said both BSA and the LDS Church are pleased that the case
is being heard by the Supreme Court.
"We welcome the opportunity for the court to reach a definitive decision in this matter," he said. "We are confident that the court will support us
and defend our right to establish standards for leadership and membership as a private organization."

 

[Rando]

How many people do you think are in the scouts and are gay, but just arn't saying anything?

 

[Daggertooth]

I have never met a gay scout, (as far as I know) but I'm sure they exist. If these indevidual keeps their sexual orientation to himself then there is no problem. The argument was over Gay leaders. And even then, if they keep their orientation quiet nothing will happen. It's just the majority of parents feel uncomfortable with their children being under the leadership of gays or associated with gays. In fact, If I remember Right, Some religions even consider Same sex orientation a sin. Since the religious comuinity and the boy scouts are so tightly entwined It is no suprize that gays have been excluded.

Daggertooth