Flashback & Threshhold - Do these make you nervous too?

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Istanbul

Guest
Having played through all the severely nasty days of Magic...the Academy decks, ProsBloom, Necrodecks, The Deck...I've learned several things.

First of all, cards that let you violate the basic precepts of Magic have great potential for abuse.
Second of all, anything that has ANY potential for abuse will be abused, and in the most abusive way possible.

Flashback gives players the ability to access spells out of their graveyard. Memorable spells that have done this in the past are Living Death, Yawgmoth's Will, and things like that. Picture a counterspell with Flashback. Picture a Wrath with Flashback. Suddenly, you get double usage out of every spell with Flashback that you have.

Threshhold rewards players for putting cards into their graveyard. Sacrifice effects, discard, countermagic...these suddenly become even better than they already were, because putting cards into your graveyard suddenly turns all Threshhold cards into undercosted, hard-to-deal-with monstrosities.

Yes, I may be paranoid. Maybe R&D have learned their lessons, maybe Odyssey will be sufficiently balanced to overrule these problematic concepts.

And maybe monkeys will come flying out of my butt.
 
T

terzarima

Guest
I'm far more worried about the monkies than the new mechanics.

I sure that these cards will be balanced. I mean, they remind me of the avatars right? And you didn't see very many avatars in pro decks.

I'm sure there will be some good cards with these abilities, but not all cards in the set will have it, and I'm sure that it will be balanced. I have confidence in the system.
 
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Gizmo

Guest
Threshold is not necessarily about graveyards. Who ha said all threshold cards will trigger off the graveyard? It seems to me that Threshold cards could trigger off anything you want them too - cards in hand, lifetotals, creatures on the board, anything, Or maybe I don`t know what Threshold is supposed to do.

Flashback is a very interesting ability, I like it a lot. Expect it to be nowhere near broken. Its like a Buyback you can only pay once. Not a problem.
 
D

DÛke

Guest
...anyone, would you believe me...really...if I told you that "Flashback" is an ability created by MTGnews’ famous card-making group the HGML? I've worked with HGML for about a year before, and now I'm illustrating for them..."Flashback" was INVENTED by us, the HGML group about 2-3 years ago, in the form of "Fade." Flashback and Fade are exactly the same thing. WotC, directly or indirectly, have stolen our idea.

Would you believe me if I told you that Threshold is an ability created by me? I didn't think so, but its true. Mine was called "Evolve," and it did the same thing, but it had different wordings.

I'm telling you people...if you have great ideas...put them on the damn boards! WotC DOES listen to its fans. Kicker was a proof. Now Flashback and Threshold. Makes me happy even more now that I've discovered few WotC employees lurking around these very boards.

Flashback has different advantages then Buyback. First, with Buyback, you MUST pay the Buyback cost WITH the main cc, meaning you'll have wait until you have enough mana in order to cast the spell WITH the Buyback. With Flashback, however, you can play the spell, and then play it again ANY time you want upon your will. Second, if you pay a Buyback cost, and the spell is countered, you've just wasted some good mana, and have lost the spell...FOREVER. With Flashback, should the spell become countered, you only lose what you paid for, and guess what? You could play the spell AGAIN whenever you have mana available. Flashback is also great against discard spells; you don't lose the card, you just lose the 1st play of the card. :) I consider Flashback to be extra annoying spells because not even Blue's counter magic or Black's discard can deal with them.

I agree with Gizmo about Threshold. I don't see any reason to hold that it's only activated upon the graveyard. I see it as being more general, than so restricted to the graveyard. I think it's a pretty nifty ability, but AGAIN, I hope WotC make the most of it. Not a lot of abilities are used to their fullest potential. There are still tons and tons of idea for Buyback, Cycling, and Fading that have not been explored at all...and it makes you think where the brains of these people that makes these cards. My head is full of ideas...and I'm one person. You'd think that a big group would have a better chance at seeing the more eccentric side of things...that's not the case with WotC, obviously.
 
C

Cateran Emperor

Guest
Well, if you want to get technical, the reason our rumors team is pretty convinced that it's only 7 cards in graveyard is because Mystic Zealot says:

Threshold - Mystic Zealot gains +1/+1 and flying (You have threshold if there are 7 or more cards in your graveyard)

That "you" generally means that it is a universal condition that it has to hit, otherwise it would read "This."

Of course, there could be multiple conditions, and we're looking too deeply into this. For now, the point is that we're convinced it is only 7 cards until we see one that says otherwise.
 
A

Apollo

Guest
Flashback doesn't worry me at all. Unless they print a card with some sort of game-breaking mechanic with Flashback, it's not going to be broken. Yawgoth's Will let you use multiple cards that were already good. Flashback, thus far, let's you use one decet card over again, at an inflated price.

Threshold shouldn't just depend on the 7-card limit. Respectfully, I hope you're wrong CE, cause it could be much more interesting otherwise. If it is correct, though, I don't think you have to worry too much about Threshold, because AFAIK you can't really get 7 cards into the graveyard quick enough to make it unstoppable.
 
F

FoundationOfRancor

Guest
Neither of them bother me at all.

And as for Mtgnews making them, thats dumb. Threshold has been printed on a helluva lot of cards before, just without official wording. Flashback isnt anything totally new at all; they just gave it an ability.
 
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Gizmo

Guest
Name a card with flashback then.

And while you are at it name a card with Threshold.
 
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Gizmo

Guest
Different, thats like saying Hammer of Bogardan has Flashback. Flashback is a one-off ability, Hammer was potentially endless recursion and so more like Buyback.

Like MAYBE you could call Ashen Ghoul Flashback, but I`d dispute that even.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
(I'm getting more involved in Magic as it looks like maybe, just maybe, a friend is getting back in and we might be able to play some)

Welp, looks like Isty is alone in this so far in that everyone else is saying "wait and see". Going by past history of WOTC, there might be a couple cards that might make it through and have the potential to be abusive, but overall as a set I don't think it will be a problem (of course, if you're one of those people who think that NONE of the potentially-abusive cards should make it through, then maybe I do agree with you :) )

Not to rain on DUke's parade, but these sets are usually playtested 2 years in advance, which means ideas are brainstormed before then. And I remember in some "behind the scenes designing Tempest" that there were too many ideas and some got postponed to Urza's Saga.

I'm not saying that WOTC couldn't have "stolen" some ideas; what I'm saying is that it's entirely possible that different people could have come up with the same ideas, much like deck ideas.
 
E

EricBess

Guest
Does anyone remember Rubik's cube? Two people came up with the design at roughly the same time completely independently.

However, that doesn't mean I don't agree with DUke. I think it is very possible that WotC scans the boards for ideas. The would never take an exact card or use the same words, but anything posted on the boards has no expectation of privacy. If WotC sees something they think might be fun, they can use it and I'm guessing that it happens.

Anyone here play Chaos magic? If so, you probably know who Mike Van De Water is. He's one of the creators of Chaos Magic and they had an ability in Chaos Magic called Magnet. The Flagbearers were patterened after Magnet, either intentionally or by coincidence.
 
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FoundationOfRancor

Guest
Gizmoe: Hammer and such is exactly what I mean. The difference (And in my opinion it only weakens it) is that you can only use Flashback it wasnt like that, it'd be a better buyback.

As for Threshold, pick any card that has a situational booster.
 
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Gizmo

Guest
I would say there has NEVER been a card you cast from the graveyard. This gives you potentially more than 7 options each turn, you could actually have 10-11 cards you could cast on any one turn. This has never been the case before.

Also I would say that the only cards similar to Threshold are the Avatars. Empyrial Armor is NOT a Threshold card.
 
I

Istanbul

Guest
Originally posted by Gizmo
I would say there has NEVER been a card you cast from the graveyard. This gives you potentially more than 7 options each turn, you could actually have 10-11 cards you could cast on any one turn. This has never been the case before.
And THAT is what is making me squirm. Suddenly having access to a massive array of spells is what made Yawgmoth's Will so good. Suddenly, you get double the discard...double the creature-kill...etc. Except that now, this ability doesn't require another spell to get it moving! Sure, the second casting is overcosted...but who cares? Instant-speed effects become especially broken.

I'm not saying they're a bad idea. I'm not saying that something bad WILL happen. Just that the mechanics...especially Flashback...have great *potential* for abuse. Let's see what happens.
 
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EricBess

Guest
Actually, there was a card, but it was a bit different. It was called Bosmium Strip and it allowed you to play cards from your graveyard. It wasn't widely played. These are a bit more powerful because they are inherent with the card, but also more limited. From what I have seen, the cost to cast the spell originally has been ramped up a decent amount. The cost to cast from the graveyard is more in line with an equivalent spell.
 
Z

Zadok001

Guest
I don't think either of these effects is, in and of itself, highly abusable. Flashback has interesting repercussions as far as the card advantage theory works. For example, Gerrard's Verdict is no longer directly 2 for 1. It always goes at least 1 for 1 (as any Flashback card that gets discarded loses 1/2 of its effect, making it worth ~.5 cards), but it won't work nearly as well. That makes the wildly unsubstaniated assumption that these things are playable, but it's an interesting side effect.

Regarding ideas being stolen, there are only so many cards ideas in the world. WotC's bound to hit some we already have. I came up with card ideas nearly word for word to something WotC printed two sets later. I never said anything about them to people online, so it's not like they stole the idea - They merely had the same one. If you come up with something, what's to stop them coming up with the SAME thing? :)

Threshold just looks bad to me. But that's just a gut response. I don't want to pay lots of mana for a weak little creature.
 

TomB

Administrator
Staff member
Originally posted by EricBess
Actually, there was a card, but it was a bit different. It was called Bosmium Strip and it allowed you to play cards from your graveyard. It wasn't widely played. These are a bit more powerful because they are inherent with the card, but also more limited. From what I have seen, the cost to cast the spell originally has been ramped up a decent amount. The cost to cast from the graveyard is more in line with an equivalent spell.
I LOVE Bösium Strip in my T1 12 Bolt deck! :eek:
 
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theorgg

Guest
Flashback is an interesting ability, but then so is the Kenny ability of the flagbearers.

Abuse is possible in just about any deck, and with any card-- It just has to be made that way.

Let's put it this way: Cycling. All cards cycled for (2). What if there was a card that cycled for one life? Or 0? The way WOTC balances the set is what will make it work.

Urza's Saga had some of the lamest abilities if you look at it. Cycling was, before the cards were made, "Cool, and possibly broken!" Echo was "one of the worst ability concepts ever, worse than Cumulative Upkeep!" according to a similar article on the dojo.

Saga was THE most powerful set ever printed, and the second most powerful was probably it's third set, Destiny.

If the cards are printed as being abusable-- too cheap and such-- then that is what happens. As it looks now, I'd say it'll be interesting.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Maybe Planar Void is getting reprinted (the only card I can think of off the ttop of my head right now that replaces cards going to the graveyard to from the game) :)
 
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