For Analysis

Z

Zadok001

Guest
First of all, this thread could arguably belong in Home Made Cards. But it's not meant as an attempt to make up a fake card. Think of this more as a research thread.

Instant
BR
Destroy any one permanent if it came into play this turn. It cannot be regenerated.

Is that card too good? (For those of you who know EXACTLY where I'm going with this, please don't post it. Just answer the question.)

And no, it's not supposed to be targetted. That's integral, so don't think it is targeted.
 
M

Multani

Guest
Personally, I think this functions almost like a counterspell, except it's not quite as good since it's target has to come into play becomes it's effective.
Personally, I think it's fair. Not too good, but not too bad either.

Here's my analysis:

None-targetted destruction: Very good
Dual colored casting cost: Not too good, but still okay. Overall fair.
Near counterspell-ability: Interesting as it's not really Black and red's theme.
Target has to come into play: Not too good. Allows CIP effects to trigger.
2cc: Fair. If it were targeted destruction, it wouldn't be too good, but for untargetted destruction with the drawbacks, it's fair.

Overall:
It's very specific card for a very specific purpose. The way this card is designed is almost like Tsablo's Web; designed to shut down another particular card.
 
J

Jake74

Guest
The way I see it, this is basically a counter that you can use after the spell is in play. That's too good. It doesn't target so it can get rid of anything, especially not counterable spells(Blurred Mongoose). With this, you can let something through, but if another card that improves on it shows, you can decide to get rid of it, and possibly more. I know that CIP abilities happen, but so what? This is too good.
Example- I play blastoderm(with fires), you let it go because you have a glacial wall(0/7) I then put a cloak or rancor on it, so you decide to get rid of blasty- 2 for 1 after the fact, too strong...
The two colors isn't enough... it would have to be 4 mana or 3 colors... I could see this at UBR...
 
A

Azreal the Soulmaster

Guest
how could you put a armadillo cloak or rancor on blastoderm it can't be targeted?
 
C

Chaos Turtle

Guest
I'm not really sure where you're going with this, but the first thing I'd recommend is a rewording.

"Target player sacrifices a permanent that came into play this turn."

This maintains what appears to be the intent of the card, which is to be a kind of retroactive counterspell for permanents. It's a neat idea, and a strong card. Not too strong, though, as it's limited to permanents that have just been played, and has a two-color mana cost. I'd prefer to see a card like this costed at 3 mana (1BR) but BR is probably fair, as it's not any better than Terminate.

It's more versatile than it looks at first glance, as it would be better against players who play multiple permanents, and can be used against things that come into play by other means than casting. The rewording would balance this though, not to mention avoiding what I think is a very ugly precedent that the non-targetting would set. The one thing that really concerns me is that it can remove land if the player doesn't play another permanent in the same phase the land was played. That's a Very Bad Thing™, and i'd recommend either a higher cost or a "non-land" clause.
 
D

DÛke

Guest
...speaking as an expert cardmaker, I would say that it's fair.

Chaos Turtle, your wording doesn't clone Zadok's in effect. Your wording enables the controller of the permanent to select and sacrifice a permanent of his or her choice. Zadok's wording enables the caster of that BR Instant to destroy any permanent. The legal wording would be something like:

"Target player sacrifices a permanent of your choice."

Anyway, back to the card, which is nowhere *near* Counterspell. Counterspell can counter *any* spell, while Zadok's card can only destroy permanents. Zadok's card is playable nontheless, the thing is, if the opponent happens to be throwing out nothing but trash, than this card would be trash itself. *Even* destroying lands, this card isn't that powerful, unless your whole deck is LD. The only thing that scares me about the card is how much it's playable in LD decks themselves. Restrict its effect against lands or raise the cost by 1...and you'll have a good card with a rarity of Uncommon.

Until next time
We come 1
 
C

Chaos Turtle

Guest
I didn't say the new wording clones the effect. I said it "maintains what appears to be the intent," which is to destroy a permanent that just came into play. The reason I referred to it as a "retroactive Counterspell" is that most of the time, players only play one permanent per turn. In much the same way, Counterspell usually only has one legal target, but sometimes has more than one (particulary during counter-wars).

Imagine the Blastoderm example. Player A plays a turn 3 Blastoderm, and player A subsequently plays <This Card>. Whichever version you use, the effect is the same.

So the effect would usually be the same, though I did acknowledge that there were times where the uses of the two versions could differ. Anytime a player plays more than one permanent in a turn would be one such instance.

So I agree that your wording more closely mimics the original, but since Zadok wanted to know if his version is too good -- and it is, for reasons that go beyond the card itself -- I suggested what I felt was a better wording. better for the card, and better for the game.

My main issue with the card (the land-kill possibilities being a strong secondary) was that it avoided targetting restrictions. My revision hardly weakens the card (Diabolic Edict is generally recognized as a great card, for example) it just avoids what is, in my opinion, a Great and Terrible Evil ;) that being ignoring untargetability.

As far as the land-kill thing goes, even if your deck isn't all land-kill, this card is great (with either wording). Say you're going first and play a Swamp. Opponent plays Plains. You play Mountain. Opponent plays a Plains, then White Knight, and passes priority with White Knight on the stack. Now you have a choice: play <This Card> now, and the opponent loses her new Plains, or wait until White Knight resolves and she gets to choose which she loses (or you do, going by the original, more powerful, wording). Either way, you're way ahead of the game. On your turn, untap and Stone Rain the remaining Plains. Your opponent's best-case scenario here is either she's left with a White Knight and no land versus your 3 land, or one Plains (and no Knight) versus your 3 land. You have an incredible tempo advantage, even though your poor opponent is playing with efficient creatures.

Slower decks, and decks light on permanent-creating spells, would find having their land blown up this way rather demoralizing, don't you think? And yes, I'm saying that the example deck runs only 4 Stone Rain as dedicated land destruction, with this very efficient and versatile card taking the slot that Pillage might have occupied. This leaves plenty of room for lots of other nasty stuff in red-black.

Anticipating counter-arguments involving playing against green decks with alternate mana sources... I Shock or Seal your 1st-turn mana-monster, and next turn you're in the same boat as your unfortunate white-playing opponent was earlier, with no significant loss of card parity.

So I reiterate that the hypothetical card, as posted, is much too strong, conceding that even my revision is nearly as powerful, and recommend not only a change in wording, but an increase in cost or at the very least a clause to prevent its affecting lands.

In short, to answer Zadok's original question, "Yes, it's too good.
 
I

Istanbul

Guest
Pretty bloody amazing, if you ask me. $10 rare in any set in which it was released. Compare it to Vindicate, for best results.

Vindicate - Sorcery
Hypothetical Card - Instant
Advantage: Hypothetical Card

Vindicate - 3 mana
Hypothetical Card - 2 mana
Advantage: Hypothetical Card

Vindicate - Enemy colors
Hypothetical Card - Allied colors
Advantage: Hypothetical Card

Vindicate - Any permanent, anytime
Hypothetical Card - Any permanent on the turn it was played
Advantage: Vindicate

So as long as you time it well, your hypothetical card is *better* than Vindicate.
 
Z

Zadok001

Guest
(DUke's wording is actually closer to the effect I was looking for... :) You're right, there's certainly better ways to phrase it.)
 
L

Lotus Mox

Guest
What bugs me with this card is that it is able to destroy Enchantments, which shouldn't be possible for Black or Red.
I would add the restriction that it can only force a sacrifice of non-enchantments, then it would be possibly a fair card, otherwise it will give BR an ability which is out of flavor, and such things are usually bad, unless they are horribly overpriced.

also imagine this in Land destruction:

1st turn Mountain
opp 1st turn land
2nd turn Swamp
opp 2nd turn land, you play hypothetical card @ eot to destroy a land
3rd turn Mountain, Stone Rain

Your opponent has no lands compared to your 3.

this is a bit unfair IMO.

so I'd say it should be able to deal only with non-land non-enchantment permanents, which is a bit narrow, and makes this card rather weak.
 
T

theorgg

Guest
In my honest opinion, I would say that it's not that badly broken.

It HAS to be used on the turn the problem permanant pops up, so it has the EXACT same weakness that a counterspell has. If you wanted to get rid of that Mishra's Factory, tough excrement. It's now hitting you for two this turn.

A landkill spell that was RR, target player sacs a land seems like it'd be fair to me, though it's pretty powerful. But a simi-B/R counterspell that could only hit permanants? As written, that's pretty good, however, to make it in more flavourful, a loss of life of perhapse half the sacc'ed spell's casting cost might be more balanced and in flavor...
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
I think in terms of power it`s perfectly reasonable - it`s BR`s only enchantment kill spell ever, which is a worry, but it`s not in any way overpowered - it is in fact a very bad counterspell card.

1) only counters permanents
2) the permanent hits play, so abilties can be triggered or activated.

EXCEPT

3) it lets you kill land

Oops, Sorry. We just found out it was completely broken.

However I would be amazed if it would pass simply because it`s not in the themes of BR to have sucha counterspell-like effect. Also, whilst as ever I think Istanbul misses the point (he scores is 3-1 to Hypothetical Card, I`d say that the 1 that Vindicate loses is far more important than any of the other aspects), I don`t think they`d rik letting somebody play with 8 Desert Twisters.

Oh, it`s also brutally undercosted at 2cc.

Here is the version they would let you play.

Entropic Blast
BR1
Destroy target non-land permanent if that permanent came into play this turn. That permanent cannot be regenerated.
"They just don`t make things like they used to."
 
E

EricBess

Guest
Wow, Zadok! I'm amazed at some of the responses you have gotten here. I'm assuming that your whole intent was to compare the card to a Counterspell, which everyone accepts, but to word it in such a way that it seems lmore powerful.

Let's compare it to Counterspell directly:

Pro:
You can wait until the end of the turn to decide whether or not to counter.
You can allow something to use a negative CIP effect before countering it.
You can counter something after an enchantment gets dropped on it.
You can counter Blurred Mongoose/Kavu Chameleon.

Con:
It is two colors.
You cannot keep a CIP effect from happening.
You cannot counter instants or sorceries.

Really quickly, before someone wants to compare the card to Vindicate again. The fact that you can kill a permanent already in play with Vindicate makes it so these cards aren't really even related. This card is definitely a counterspell in disguise, not a watered down Vindicate. Vindicate is much better because you cannot count on having the card in your hand when a spell is cast.

In my oppinion, this card is seriously weaker than Counterspell. The only true advantage I see for this card over Counterspell is that they cannot bluff it out of you. One common practice against a control deck is to try to tempt out a Counterspell with a less important card in an attempt to get your more important cards into play. As such, that advantage cannot be discounted. If your hypothetical card were UU casting cost, I would say that it was a strong Counterspell for this exact reason. But it's not, it's BR and the whole bluff thing is unimportant.

The remaining advantages are largely irrelevant and the disadvantages are at best unimportant and at worst blatently devistating.

So Zadok, what I think you are truely asking is, "Who thinks Counterspell is too powerful?" Obviously, if you were to ask it straight out, you wouldn't get an honest answer because people are used to Counterspell and we take it for granted that it is in the environment.

Personally, I agree with you. Counterspell is the most played around card in the environment. The only reason it isn't a devistation to play against is that we are used to playing against it and know how to bluff in powerful cards.

Does that mean it is too powerful? Not really, but the environment is very control oriented recently. Personally, I think that cards like Counterspell are good for the environment because they separate the truely good players from those that just take the best decks from the net.

I think the true problem is when the counterspells themselves because too powerful or too numerous. There is a lot of synergy between Twart and Foil, for example. While there are limitations to taking advantage of the synergy (in terms of tempo), backing them up with normal Counterspells can be a powerful force. Still, that's a lot of cards in the deck dedicated to this, so the deck is limited by this factor.

Anyway, in my oppinion, Counterspell is powerful, but balanced. Your hypothetical card is a weak counterspell.
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
Counterspell is fair because it costs UU.
If the printed a Counterspell that cost BR it would be unfair.
 
T

theorgg

Guest
The argument seems to be hingeing on the B/R debate. The flavour of black and red has land disruption, and for some cost can deal with enchantments. Phyrexian Tribute is a great example of this. The fact remains that this card gets rid of three things: Creatures, Enchnatments and Lands PLAID ON THAT TURN. Killing creatures and lands is in flavor for red/black, and it even allows for the land to be tapped before killing it. a land-counterspell has never been printed, and it's about time for one to pop out to try the freaky concept's effect on the game. Enchantments are a muddy case, but currently, all this would do is give Machine Head a bit of an advantage with Fires, IF they didn't tap out for somthing the turn before.

Both Black and red are VERY agressive colors, and a counterspell that's in an agressive deck slows the deck (suprisingly). Look at Mage's Contest. It's a three mana red counterspell/burn spell that takes care of any card. But that doesn't mean that it's used. don't be freaked out, but people don't dilute the dilligence their deck does without dumbing down their dedication to the game their attempting to display.

d works well, I'd say...;)

That's my thoughts from my dumb self. Feel free to rebute.
 
M

Mundungu

Guest
A big difference with counterspell is that this "hypothitical" card can also distroy permanent that have been "put into play" instead of played.

Main example would be for a creature that has been "oathed".

The hypothetical card would be able to get rid of a Morphling that has been "oathed out" because it takes place during the upkeep (b4 anyother permanent cant be played because it is during the upkeep) and since it is not a targetted effect.

There are many cards that put permanents "into play":
rector, oath, recurring nightmare, natural order etc.. etc..
 
C

Chaos Turtle

Guest
You know, I really hadn't given the enchantment thing any thought. With that in mind, I'd think this card could br reasonable at BRG, with basic lands exempt from destruction.

Naturally, I maintain that keeping the non-targetting is bad. :p
 
N

Namielus

Guest
I think BRG is a little to unfair, here is how I would make it 'fairer'

Instant
BR
In addition to the casting cost of this card you must discard a card from your hand at random. Target player sacrifices a permanent of your choice.

OR

Instant
BR
Discard a (would-be)permanent. Target player sacrifices a permanent of the type you discarded of your choice.

OR

Instant
BB
You must control a mountain to cast this spell. Target player sacrifices a permanent of your choice.
(vis-versa)

Whats the big deal about lands anyhow...
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
I think a 2cc Instant-speed LD spell would be SOME GOOD.

If you don`t see why, then I despair, I truly do...
 
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