Oh, for the love of God!

[DÛke]

...I KNOW that Black doesn't have any enchantment removal, but did YOU know that we could splash Seal of Cleanse and/or Aura Blast with Black? Heck, we could splash Devote Witness and Aura Fracture with Black...

Fires depend on two VERY critical enchantments: Saproling Burst and Fires of Yavimaya. This means 4 Aura Fracture with 4 Vampiric Tutor and 1-3 Enlightened Tutors (to fetch the Aura Fractures) ALONE could ruin Fires...not only that, but with Vampiric Tutor, we could add 1 or 2 Perishes and other single copies of good, but over-costed cards like Ascendant Evincar or Thrashing Wumpus. As an addition, we could add 2 or 3 Seal of Doom (works well with Enlightened Tutor) to deal with Two-Headed Dragon or Chimeric Idol.

Without Fires of Yavimaya or Saproling Burst, all you have to worry about is the Blastoderm, the Chimeric Idol, and the Two-Headed Dragon. The Two-Headed Dragon could easily be destroyed by a Terror, while Blastoderm is easily destroy by the above noted Perish, or you could even add Chilling Apparition and/or Urborg Skeleton to deal with it - not to mention that BOTH Chilling Apparition AND Urborg Skeletons are very good cards. Chimereic Idol, like Blastoderm, could be dealt with either Chilling Apparition or Urborg Skeleton...and don't forget the Enlightened Tutor/Seal of Doom thingy also happens to work well against BOTH Chimeric Idol and Two-Headed Dragon...

What is left of the deck? An Assault? A Battery? All those are things not to worry about since almost ANY method could work to dodge these feeble threats...

A Black deck doesn't need much. All it needs is one of White's enchantment removal cards and a bit of tutors; Aura Fracture/Enlightened Tutor/Vampiric Tutor seems to fit this case well…

What do you think of that idea, Zadok? Gizmo? I'm interested in hearing your thoughts...

 

[Gizmo]

It isn`t dependent on Fires.
If you want to know a secret - it`s dependent on it`s land.
Go that way and you might stand a chance.

 

[DÛke]

...well, the "land" is not what I'M focusing on. Not during this approach.

Isn't my Enlightened Tutor/Aura Fracture/Vampiric Tutor thing good enough? Care to elaborate?

 

[Thallid Ice Cream Man]

...in that it is a suggestion that has probably been tried before and either ignored or done unsuccessfully, but has anyone tried using Pestilence+Lashknife Barrier? Maybe something like this?

13 Swamp
7 Plains
2 City of Brass
2 Urborg Skeleton
4 Plague Spitter
2 Thrashing Wumpus
4 Samite Elder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Terror
3 Pestilence
4 Orim's Chant
4 Lashknife Barrier
3 Aura Fracture
4 Chimeric Idol

I'm guessing it will be too slow... Is this black enough for you? If it actually is successful, what about a sideboard?

 

[Apollo]

Fires isn't entirely dependent on Burst and Fires. It's sorta a catch-22. If you can't deal with those, then they'll kill you. But if you devote too much space in your deck to dealing with them, then the other large creatures will kill you. That's why I don't think your deck will work (but what do I know? go ahead and try).

Your strategy tries to deal with each one of their strengths, each threat they can produce. Inevitably, you're going to be stuck with the Seal of Dooms, while they have Burst. Or you'll have Aura Fracture, and they'll have Blastoderms. IMHO, you don't go after their strengths. You try to find one of their weaknesses and exploit it. That's what Gizmo was talking about. The deck has many expensive spells, powered by 17 land and some mana creatures. So, one might be able to attack the mana to deal with Fires. But I'm too lazy to bother to try.

 

[DÛke]

...Apollo, but the Tutors/Fracture engine deals with more than just Burst/Fires...

Let me "sketch" an "outline" of a possible structure:

4x Vampiric Tutor
3x Enlightened Tutor

4x Aura Fracture
4x Seal of Doom

4x Chilling Apparition
4x Urbrog Skeleton
3x Snuff Out

>>>Aura Fracture is the KEY, I believe that is against the Fires deck. Once you get the Fracture in play, all you have to worry about (mostly) is Blastoderm and Two-Headed Dragon.

To get the Aura Fracture, Vampiric Tutor and Enlightened Tutor provide enough "insurance". The SAME tutors that will help me get the Fracture COULD ALSO help me get Seal of Doom, Seal of Cleanse...and to a lesser extent, any other card I wish to have. I have not tested this idea yet, but thinking logically, how could it possibly be weak? The Fracture will ruin their day...sure, it will decrease my land count, that's why Snuff-Out costs NO MANA if extremely needed. Chilling Apparition and Urbrog Skeleton will surely stop Blastoderm AND Chimeric Idol.

>>>Keep in mind that this is JUST an outline of a possible deck…and in the future, meaning with 7th Edition, we’ll have even MORE enchantments to search for: Worship and Pariah instantly invade my thoughts.

...back to Apollo, with 4 Vampiric Tutor and 3 Enlightened Tutor how could ANY deck get stuck?

 

[Neil Rigby]

I have heard this said before and it is something that I agree with, tutors, in large amounts, should only be played with in decks needing to see certain cards every game (combo decks). Having 7 tutors in this deck is surely just a waste of slots. 4 vampiric tutor is 'more' than enough card specific search for a deck like this.
I think aiming for a massive amount of enchantment removal is a bad idea seeing as the deck only has 4 Sap Burst that will deal you any damage, fires just speeds up the deck and its creatures, if you are able to deal with, or slow down, the hard to kill monsters you will be able to survive and gain control of the game. This will hopefully put you in a better position than the fires player and allow you to force home a win.

 

[Cerulean]

I'm going to more or less agree with duke here.

In line with doing so, I'd also like to point to Talon's b/w 'cat' deck, and say 'Hey there's a good idea,' as if I'd thought of it.

However, to that mix I might add some rituals, some spitters, some regen'ers and to be frank, Dog knows what else.

I go now, before I offend someone or something.

 

[DÛke]

..."Massive amounts of enchantment removal", Neil? You mean the 4 Aura Fracture and the lone Seal of Cleanse (which is questionable in the deck)...that's massive?

Tutors being a sign of a weak deck is an opinion; your opinion works right for you, and my opinion works right for me...

..and anyway, I AM using the Tutors to make a weak deck better...so what? People make Fires out to be something that is impossible to beat with Black as a main color...I am just trying to show them that they COULD beat it, just not the way that is "right".

Do you guys remember the Rec/Sur deck? I do...This "Tutor" deck acts something like the Rec/Sur...using the Tutors like Rec/Sur used Survival of the Fittest: getting the appropriate creature into the graveyard to be brought into play with Recurring Nightmare in order to deal with a >>specific<< situation. The Tutors here work the same...When I'm adding the 7 Tutors, I'm not aiming for the Aura Fractures alone...but on the WHOLE deck: on the 3-4 Seal of Doom, on the regenerators, on everything...even lands if needed for the Fracture...

It is fragile, yes...but it has ALL the cards to deal with Fires, and the means to get them...

 

[Thallid Ice Cream Man]

No offense is meant to anyone, and I don't want to sound pushy, but may I please have some input on the ability of my deck to stop Fires? If I speed my deck up, I think I may be on to something. However, I almost certainly am not, and to help refine the thing I would appreciate it if you people would explain what is wrong with it.
There might be a way to accomplish this (although I am probably wrong) by combining elements of my deck and of DÛke's ideas. Something like this?

14 Swamp
7 Plains
4 Dark Ritual
4 Urborg Skeleton
4 Plague Spitter
3 Vampiric Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Chilling Apparition
3 Snuff Out
2 Thrashing Wumpus
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Aura Fracture
4 Lashknife Barrier
4 Chimeric Idol

Is this really that bad? How would it fare against Fires? Respond please.

 

[DÛke]

...Thallid Ice Cream Dude...Sorry.

For creatures you have 4x Urbrog Skeleton and 3x Chilling Apparition; that is FINE, until you have 4x Plague Spitters and the 2x Thrashing Wumpus. I know you have added the Lashknife Barrier to "dodge" some of your OWN damage, but that means you are creating solutions for problems that are not very well against Fires, which is THE main idea behind the deck we're looking for. I seriously question Diabolic Intent, as it will require a creature before you could play it - YET again - you could use the semi-useless Urborg Skeletons to get what you need with THE intent...we'll have to play test...

...for now:

4x Vampiric Tutor
3x Enlightened Tutor

These are the main engines of the deck. Yes, I know I'm being extensive, but we ARE trying to find ANY solution, right?

4x Aura Fracture
4x Seal of Doom

With the Enlightened Tutor and Vampiric Tutor, these 8x "key" enchantments become more obtainable...To be exact, by the third turn, you should ALWAYS have an Aura Fracture in play - there goes there Burst/Fires.

At this point, if they deal with your Fracture (which is highly unlikely), you could easily search for a new one, but you will have to do it fast. One Burst could crumble this deck; that's not even thinkin' of what Burst could do with Yavimaya Fires. Focus on Burst, and if Yavimaya Fires become an obstacle, you know what you do: Fracture. Rarely use the Seal of Doom against their mana accelerators, use:

4x Dry Spell
3x Vendetta

With these 7x "extra-powerful-against-elf'n'bird" spells, the little mana accelerators should be no problem. If the opponent seems to be packin' up on those mana accelerators, play a Dry Spell or a Vendetta; don't be afraid to use a Vampiric Tutor to get one of these (usually Dry Spell) if needed, and don't worry about the big stuff, because the big stuff have:

4x Chilling Apparition
3x Urborg Skeleton

With Enlightened Tutor (or a Vampiric Tutor), you could search for Seal of Doom...usually, you should save the Vampiric Tutor to search for non-enchantment/artifact spells, like Chilling Apparition or the like. Those 7 regenerators are especially good against Chimeric Idol and Blastoderm. Seal of Doom could handle either the Chimeric Idol or the Two-Headed Dragon.

If you have a Fracture in play, a couple of lands, and a regenerator, you usually are in good shape. That's all it takes. With 7x Tutors, it is easily established. All you need is a kill method:

2x Thrashing Wumpus
2x Soul Burn

You only want 2x Soul Burn because you don't need to see it in your hand during the first couple of turns at all. Mid game, you could use it recover some of the life lost for the Vampiric Tutor, the Thrashing Wumpus, Soul Burn, Vendetta, and MAYBE the damage you were dealt.

The Thrashing Wumpus offers a good method of keeping the game straight. After you survive the critical point against Fires, which is when there seems to be too much to handle, the Wumpus will keep everything under control, and win you the game…since Fires will usually have nothing to defend – and even if it does, I’m sure that with this deck, they’ll possess nothing but pleasure for execution.

 

[Lotus Mox]

I feel that Black can't be reactive vs. Fires, because of it's sorcery speed Perish, and no enchantment control, if you add white for enchantment removal you really have to think if the black part of the deck is necessary, and you wouldn't be better suited with a mono-white or blue/white control deck.
And if you build a MONO black control deck which can beat Fires consistently you will get a deck which looses to virtually everything else. Though I doubt it is possible to build such a deck.

I rather build an aggressive version like this Delraich-Merc-deck(Pre-Planeshift - I'm thinking about adding Sinister strength), which is able to outrace Fires and drop a fast Blasto-killing Delraich. (it's vulnerable to Simoon though).

18 Swamp
1 Rath's Edge

4 Dark Ritual
4 Unmask
4 Vendetta
3 Snuff Out
4 Dark Triumph

4 Rampart Crawler (MVP )
4 Cateran Persuader
4 Spineless Thug
1 Molting Harpy
1 Agent of Shauku
4 Rathi Intimidator
4 Delraich

SB:
4 Stromgald Cabal
4 Perish
2 Addle
2 Coffin Puppets
3 Dread of Night

Enjoy!

 

[DÛke]

...I wasn't trying to make a good deck. I was trying to make a deck - any deck - that could destroy Fires. I wasn't looking for creativity options...

...and I couldn't make a mono-White deck, because they wanted a deck with Black as a main color.

 

[Istanbul]

Land (22):
16x Swamp
4x Underground River
2x Salt Marsh

Black Spells (20):
3x Dark Ritual
4x Dry Spell
4x Terror
3x Stupor
4x Addle
2x Perish

Creatures (11):
3x Thrashing Wumpus
3x Vodalian Zombie
2x Urborg Skeleton
3x Chimeric Idol

Gold Spells (7):
4x Recoil
3x Undermine

60-card deck, and it has *potential*.

Dry Spell kills birds and elves dead, along with early Rebel searchers.
Terror goes even further.
Addle and Stupor get rid of any early Saproling Bursts.
Thrashing Wumpus has the ability to 'blow up' and clear the board of creatures.
Vodalian Zombie and Urborg Skeleton block Blasty forever, and the Zombie can win, too.
Chimeric Idol is always a plus, and hard for Fires to reliably get rid of.
Together with discard, Recoil is permanent-destruction, up to and including Saproling Burst.
And Undermine...well, duh.

Might also find room for Phyrexian Scuta in there...oh well.

 

[arhar]

Last weekend, I played Fires in a local tournament, and I went undefeated except for one match... against my friend, who played a black/blue discard deck and TOTALLY DESTROYED me. He had terrible cards in there like Chilling Apparition, Yawgmoth's Agenda, Recoil (90% of the time that card read "Bury target permanent"), Boomerang, Hoodwink, Stupor, Probe, Avatar of Will, Fact or Fiction, etc.. He said he does this fairly consistently. Just something for you to think about