Perhaps the Dojo Disease (tm) is spreading?

[Chaos Turtle]

Decks aside from the five "Tier One" decks are not playable? Or not particularly useful in high-level competition?

Far be it from me to contradict anyone who is on a Magic Team, gunning for Pro Tour Slots, but -- if I may -- I'd like to remind anyone who's losing touch with reality that most of us are not planning to go to the Pro Tour, or even a Grand Prix, or even our State/Province/whatever Championships.

I think that most of us would like to use more than a few different cards in our decks, even those of us who mainly stick to the Standard Format.

So, from the perspective of most of us, Invasion is a very nice set that is allowing us to play the game. Calling it a bad set seems a lot like looking at a partially-completed addition to a house, and saying, "I couldn't possibly live in that."

Or, more to the point, don't tell me that I'm wrong for popping off at soda cans with a pellet shooter, just because you're a war veteran accustomed to slaughtering people en masse with an automatic rifle.

Cheers.

 

[Apollo]

AAARGH! CT! Do you not listen!

We are talking about Invasion in respect to the pro environment because that is what relates to the major Magic websites.

Far be it from me to contradict anyone who is on a Magic Team, gunning for Pro Tour Slots, but -- if I may -- I'd like to remind anyone who's losing touch with reality that most of us are not planning to go to the Pro Tour, or even a Grand Prix, or even our State/Province/whatever Championships.

That isn't the point! The point is that major Magic websites cater to those people that do attend major tournaments! And Invasion has nothing for them! So the major websites don't post anything! AND THAT IS WHAT THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD IS!!!

So, no offense, but we don't really care if Invasion is good from your perspective as a casual player, as that has no relevance whatsoever to the thread!

Now look what you've made me done! I've used the exclamation point key in this thread so much that it's about to fall off! !!!!!

You had to go and get me all worked up, didn't you?! Man!

 

[Apollo]

To summarize that for those who can't get through all those exclamation points: think before you rant about something that has no relation to the thread.

 

[Chaos Turtle]

*Ahem.*

If I may:

Recently, not much has been going on in the magic community. Besides planeshift, its been pretty much stale. The most obvious example is just the pathetic state mtgnews is in. Im not sure if the problem lays in lack of news or lack of effort, but theres a lack somewhere.

Maybe Wizards is being smart for releasing the sets every 4 months? The new sets seem to be the only thing keeping 'the magic' alive on the internet.

...or maybe its been all that pot ive been smoking.


What say you, the noble CPA Citizen?

At what point does the originator of the thread mention anything about Pro Players' Perspectives?

I see the words "magic community" (sic), of which I am a member.
I see a complaint about MTGNews's lack of updates.
I see some speculation regarding the effects of WotC's set-release schedule on the problem.
I see that FoR is still smoking the wacky weed.
And I see a request for my (and others') opinion.

Looking up at the top of the page, I also happened to notice the words "Casual Players Alliance." So, please tell me, how did this thread become about Pro Players' Perspectives?

Your assertion that "The point is that major Magic websites cater to those people that do attend major tournaments!" doesn't really ring true, either.
MTGNews.com, which is mentioned in the original post, can hardly be said to do so.
StarCityGames.com, arguably the best Magic-related site on the net, has a very nice balance of Tournament and Casual content.

So, honestly, calm yourself. It's not healthy to get all worked up like that.

Rizzo: Remember, again, that we're casual players. By definition, we don't spend 40 hours a week playtesting. And when we are playing, there's a good chance it's some screwy format that is anything but type II.

Well said, Apollo

Okay, one last thing, before you get really mad at me.

See? We're still pals.

Peace, love, and //.agic
,, and again.

 

[Apollo]

Okay. I wasn't really worked up; I tried to intersperse smilies to show that. I guess I failed.

Anyway, Mtgnews isn't the point because all it does is show news, and there isn't really any news now that Planeshift is out. 7th edition speculation is going on, but all you see is occasional art or some such. So there's no "disease" behind that.

Starcity has pro stuff. You see casual articles by Rizzo et al ("The 42nd Article About Why It's Good To Be A Gamer!"), but those come every week and that's not what's dying out. It's the pro articles, with decklists and strategy, that are missing. TheDojo is dying because of a lack of content, and all they run is pro stuff. And that's what FoR must be referring to, because everything else is still there.

See, what's missing is the pro articles. And FoR is asking about what's missing. Therefore, he's asking about the pro stuff, even though he might not realize it. And why is the pro stuff missing? That's what Gizmo and I were getting into. There is no strategy or new decks because Invasion didn't introduce much. See my point?

But getting back to what you said: ignore everything I (or anyone else) posted. Then look at your post and look at the original. Off-topic, ain't it? See, we were talking about Invasion's impact on Magic websites through its impact on the pros. But you came out and defended it in relation to casual players, which none of us have critisized. You were all excited about something no one was talking about.

That's what I was saying.

<<ouch. Too many smilies--had to get rid of some--Apollo>>

 

[Ura]

I don't know about the whole thing really. Apollo and Gizmo both say its beacause theres less to write about so the "pros" don't write. That in itself makes perfect sense, there is less to write about, because less is available to the environment that is off the wall and broken like several cards from the Urza's block were. It didn't exactly take a rocket scientist to see that Time Spiral was broken, or that Gaea's Cradle is some good, or that Morphling may be better then your average Serra Angel. When the extended season was going alot of articles were complaining about how force of will is broken now, or duress or whatever, but that nothing "new" either, just the same thing being rehashed over and over again.
Honestly I much prefer some the options that the Invasion cycle gives to deck potential, but it has nothing to work with from the previous cycle. Masques block has its select power cards, like paralax wave, port, and rebels, but all in all, from those three sets there wasn't exactly a whole lot to work with in a "tier 1" magic deck, and with Urza's block rotated out, we have nothing broken, bleeding, or begging for abuse. Its nice, but pro players all of a sudden have to work much harder to get the edge in construction because there is little to nothing that can be abused in the environment, and when you have to fight to get an edge, your not going to blab it out to every tom, dick, and harry out there. Your going to try and keep your advantage a secret till you play it out. Then you either keep riding that one, or try to hunt down a new advantage. Theres nothing to blame it on, because we have an even playing field as far as the cards go, now it comes down to a little more luck and much more player quality to make fewer errors and read the board correctly. Because of all this people aren't going to spread tech as far as the eyes can see and they aren't going to go out of their way to analyze the newest big guns on the street so that anyone can beat them, not when they themselves have to beat them first.
So what if there is nothing original for pros to write about, once you've said everything there is to say, whats left thats worth talking about?


Magic isn't dead, its just reached a state of balance and tranquility.

 

[Chaos Turtle]

Anyway...

All I wanted to point out was that you oughtn't jump all over those of us who want to express our opinions from our own perspectives, since the thread did in fact ask for them.

But whatever... it's hardly worth arguing over. I won't even bother refuting your points again.

Just remember that two or three people discussing a subject in one light, in no way precludes the rest of us from discussing it in another. In fact, I think it's great that more than one perspective is being examined.

That's all, nothing else.

 

[Gizmo]

I think the current the lull in T2 is the cumulative result of the fact that 4 of the last 5 releases have been very poor for competitive play. Nemesis apart, I think the other releases have been notable for just how little they have offered to the environment. Yes, there were good cards (Ramosian Sergeant, Parallax Wave, Parallax Tide, Saproling Burst, Blastoderm...etc) but the REST of the cards are SO damn average, mediocre even, that they are simply unplayable in a constructed manner. To win games at a competitive level of tournaments you HAVE to be playing with the few cards that are waaaaay better than the rest of the junk in Masques, Nemesis, Destiny, Invasion, and Planeshift.

Look at the front page, look at Seth Burn`s reply. It stinks, I wouldn`t write a piece so obviously antagonistic in a second, but he`s also right. As a fairly serious competitive designer and player I find it extremely insulting to have people who celebrate their status as 'casual players' come up and tell me I don`t know how to build a good deck, and that I`m wrong about the fact that only a few decks work.

THAT is my personal gripe - I didn`t get really involved in this thread until Friggin Rizzo pretty much personally insulted my ability to approach a tournament metagame and said I was simply crying off because I couldn`t be bothered putting any effort in.
That`s an insult.
He should try being a good player one day, and seeing JUST how damn hard it is to maintain that edge you have over all the people who 'think' they know what is going on. I know for a fact that there is currently a growing amount of discontent among the pros about just how much of a hard time they are being given on this. They are being unfairly blamed for netdecks, when in fact the Pros are the ones working hardest to play something that isn`t a netdeck.

I`m not interested in this 'was the thread about a pros or casuals viewpoint' because that was just a slanging match that came up out of nowhere. As of right now I`m changing the topic...

<Gizmo> Gizmo applies for OP status for Gizmo.
<Gizmo> Gizmo changes channel topic. New topic: "Pros are not the antichrist - discuss."

 

[FoundationOfRancor]

I just made a speculation that Wizards was right in printing a set every 4 months, because maybe magic would become really stale without it.

It's not just isolated to Planeshift here, everything dulls down after about two to three months after a new set has it.

(Gizmo has a valid point, Im just saying this isnt specific to the recent type II or planeshift)

All I want to know, is what you think about the Set Release time, considering this idea here.


What say You, the Noble CPA Citizen?

 

[Gizmo]

Not necessarily true. A vibrant metagame like Tempest/MiVilite swung all the time because anywhere up to a dozen decks worked fine, and it was all about reading the metagame.
But, generally, yes the field slows down before a new set as the old ideas have been explored. It`s telling therefore that T2 has been slowing down after about a month, not after two or three. The sets are giving NOTHING to mess around with.

 

[Apollo]

CT: First, I didn't mean it to seem like I was jumping all over you. It was like, well, I was laughing and kind of exasperated because you came out and talked about a subject that was rather off-topic, sorta out of nowhere.

All I wanted to point out was that you oughtn't jump all over those of us who want to express our opinions from our own perspectives, since the thread did in fact ask for them.

Yeah, but it asked for your opinion on the decline in the Magic community, and you didn't talk about that. That's all I was saying.

But whatever... it's hardly worth arguing over. I won't even bother refuting your points again.

No, really, I'd love for you to refute my points. That's what this is for, expressing our opinions to one another. If you think I'm wrong, tell me why. It's just that in your first reply you weren't refuting my statements, and that got my feeble mind all confused.

And we're still friends, natch.
_______________

FoR: we thought we were supposed to discuss the reason for the decline in the Magic community. All along we were supposed to be talking about set release, huh? Well, I agree.
_______________

Gizmo: I agree with you. Rizzo was off-base in attacking pros and casuals. It's the sheep attending PTQs and Grand Prixs that use the deck-of-the-week off the 'net. The Pros try their best to find something to give them that edge. They are the least to blame.

 

[Chaos Turtle]

Originally posted by Gizmo
A vibrant metagame like Tempest/MiVilite swung all the time because anywhere up to a dozen decks worked fine, and it was all about reading the metagame.

Yes, yes, and I agree wholeheartedly with what Gizmo has to say here.

Since you brought up what has to be my (and many others' I'm sure) favorite Type 2 environment of all time, is there any indication, given this latest release, that such variability might be recreated soon?

I hope so.

God, I hope so. *fugues*

...dreaming of the days when the pro decks and fun decks were much harder to distinguish...wine and berries...necratog...casual sex...turbo-zvi...serial murder...se&ntilde;or stompy...picnics in the park...whisper-go...

*comes around*

Ah, how I love this game.

So, hugs all around for anyone who might have been exasperated by my insistence that Pros do not define the game. They don't, but they do, depending upon one's perspective.

Mine, of course, is the right one. Always is.

 

[Cerulean]

And although it is somewhat disheartening, I nonetheless do not truly care!

Why? Because I build rogue decks ALL the time. Without exception. The only times I play netdecks is when they belong to other people and I am curious enough to give them a whirl, generally at their request.

And they work too (my creations). I have been to very few tournaments so far, but I plan to go to many more, and surprise the absolute **** out of the majority there.

Courage and imagination are NOT in short supply in the world, let alone in the Magic community; I know this to be so. And yet, most of us seem to act these days as if they are non-existent...

I agree with whoever it was who was de-emphasising the 'life-or-death' perception of the game.

Lastly, I would like to suggest to the majority of tournament players, this : Even if your prime care in it all were pride, say, then DEFINITELY go with your own inventions. Why? Because if you win, it will be on the merits of your own ingenuity, not on the rather less glorious measures of your spending limit (to afford 4 of each of the 'required' netdeck cards) combined with your attentiveness when being told what and how to play.

 

[Spiderman]

FoR: THAT'S what you were saying/asking? Whether the length of set releases was too short or long or whatever? I also didn't get that at all...

Well, abstractly, I think it's probably about right, seeing that there has a been a dearth of articles extolling the virtues of sets/cards (this is merely parroting what people have said before). And I think that's because of what someone else said, mostly the pros write stuff like that and they're going to keep good tech to themselves (which is fine, it just means others should start writing about it instead of waiting for it).

Personally, I think they may be coming a bit fast, but I'd take a firmer stance on this ONLY if I was really playing regularly and had to deal with buying cards. As it is, this is what I remember from the past, that I was wishing they weren't coming out that fast.