Perhaps the Dojo Disease (tm) is spreading?

F

FoundationOfRancor

Guest
Recently, not much has been going on in the magic community. Besides planeshift, its been pretty much stale. The most obvious example is just the pathetic state mtgnews is in. Im not sure if the problem lays in lack of news or lack of effort, but theres a lack somewhere.

Maybe Wizards is being smart for releasing the sets every 4 months? The new sets seem to be the only thing keeping 'the magic' alive on the internet.

...or maybe its been all that pot ive been smoking.


What say you, the noble CPA Citizen?
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
No it`s because Invasion was a very bad set that instantly created a stagnant T2 environment that meant it was useless trying to discuss or develop new strategies.
How else is Zvi getting away STILL writing about 'His Fires' like two months after he made Top-8 with it?

Looks like everything I said about Invasion turned out to be true - who would have thunk it?
:p

BTW - I like Planeshift, it is FAR better than Invasion and promises to do a lot to make T2 much more diverse and interesting.
 
F

FrigginRizzo

Guest
All right chiefs,

First off, T2 is not stagnant. Just because the pros showed how sheeplike they are by playing tons of Rebels and Fires doesn't mean the environment is stagnant. Just because every friggin' JSS report I read is a report on Fires doesn't mean the environment is stagnant. Right now there are probably at least ten viable T2 decks; if you think the environment is stagnant, I suggest you blame yourself.

Planeshift will open up tons of deck ideas in the beginning, but let's face it, after the first IBC/T2 Pro Tour, many of you will just play a variant of a deck that the pros played. How's that for stagnant? I suggest that we are all to blame; intellectual laziness is what we are best at, right?

If you think the environment sucks, do your part to fix it. That might be as easy as not playing a friggin' Net Deck. If you also think that Magic is in a lull because of the relative quiet on The Net, then stop your bitching and write an article or two for someone.

We can only get stale if we make ourselves get stale. Invasion was ground-breaking: Where are the combo decks? Where are the old school deck types? Invasion smacked us in the teeth and asked us to think on a different level. Don't blame anyone but yourself if you don't feel up to the challenge that WotC presented us with. Well, you can blame the pros and little wanna be pros Net Decking away at the local shop, but is that really going to help?

If you see something wrong, fix it. Or don't bitch.

John Friggin' Rizzo
 
R

Rando

Guest
Possible Type II decks at the momment:

Skies
Rebals
Fires
Waters
Cowerdice/Jolt
U/W control
B/U control
At least 3 variations on Rebals

hmmmmm....now I'm having troubles, but you can never discount a rouge deck being played by a good player either.

OK, help me out here, I know I'm missing some.
 
C

Chaos Turtle

Guest
Skies
Dark Skies
Monowhite Rebels (control)
Monowhite Rebels (beatdown w/ Crusade)
Counter-Rebel short-chain
Counter-Rebel long-chain
White/Green Rebels
Fires
Red Zone
Blue/White Angel
...
And those are just the really good decks.

There are plenty of 'Tier 2' strategies that just need to be worked on and tested.

And Gizmo's right about one thing... it's about to get blown wide open. Three-color decks are going to open up a wealth of strategies... one new decktype is practically self-contained within the set.
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
Actually Riz, I am a feature writer for Starcity, like yourself. And when I wrote that Invasion would create a stagnant environment I got a bunch of people of didn`t know how to play magic telling me I was wrong, and Budde and co telling me I was the only guy making sense still writing on the net.

If you think any deck that doesn`t have Sergeant, Burst, or Counterspell in is worth anything, then you are plain wrong. Four decks (five if you count Rebels and CounterRebels as seperate decks, which I would) are all that is viable in tier-1 tournament play. Don`t blame the pros for a lack of ingenuity - pros are the ones who spend most time tracking down every last available option to get an edge at the next tournament. Blame WotC for castrating T2.
Hopefully Planeshift will do something to help this situation, such as make decks that don`t have white in viable.
 

Ransac

CPA Trash Man
So, nobody mentions B/R discard, which has been doing pretty well. And, I personally think that magic is at an all time high. Invasion, which I believe is a fabulous set, has set the tone for new people to join the game. The set wasn't very complex, but held some powerful cards, nevertheless. Invasion is my second favorite set, next to tempest, because each POWER card has no chance of being banned, because even though they are broken, they only work in certain decks.

So, to all of you that despise Invasion, :p. And, to all the think magic is decreasing in value, :p. And, to all who shave sheep, :p.



Ransac, cpa trash man
 
R

Rando

Guest
I have always heared that so called "Machine Head" R/B decks have been performing quite poorly over all, which is why I did not mention it in the list I made.


...not that I know what I'm talking about, ofcoarse.
 
F

FoundationOfRancor

Guest
Friggin Rizzo: Dont turn this post into a Hypocrite blame game. It was a simple question, didnt deserve a rant.

Gizmo: I dont wanna think your right, but you may be. Still thinking...(about the Invasion sucking part, I think your waaay off on the good deck part...)
 
I

Istanbul

Guest
Heck, I'm trying something different, and it's working out pretty well. Read my You Can't Do That In Type II thread in the Decks section, and realize that BEFORE revision, it went 2-2...
 
A

Apollo

Guest
I'm afraid I completely agree with Gizmo. Invasion has created about 5 decks that stand a reasonable chance, and nothing has changed since then. That's why there's nothing on the sites. 'Cause there's nothing to talk about!

Calling the pros "sheeplike" is silly. They're the ones digging around through all the chaff in Invasion trying to find SOMETHING different to give them the advantage in a tournament. There just isn't anything.

Rizzo, we're not really the ones to yell at for playing NetDecks. A good portion of the people here are as likely to be playing two-headed giant as Type II. But those that do play in tournaments, have to use a netdeck. Anything else is throwing your entry fee away.

Invasion may have been ground-breaking. But it got about 6 inches into the ground, and stopped dead. You can't build anything on that.
 
I

Istanbul

Guest
You also have to remember that the card pool of Type II is currently at its smallest.

Whenever a large expansion is released, we lose an entire BLOCK of cards. Type II currently consists of:

Masques
Nemesis
Prophecy
Invasion
6th Edition

That's not bad...but it's not good, either. Magic is ALWAYS a bit stagnant at this time of year. Patience...
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
So there's nothing in Magic left to talk about aside from Planeshift? No new R&D/DCI issues? No questionable "ethic" antics going on?

If so, maybe Magic being quiet is a good thing... :)
 
F

FrigginRizzo

Guest
Chiefs, chiefs, chiefs, chiefs, etc., misc., et. al.,

You have to use a Net Deck? There are only 5 viable decks? Far be it from me (not really) to think that those statements are incorrect, but I think they are terribly misguided.

First off, saying that you have to use a Net Deck to succeed is akin to saying that "I wanna be like Mike." I just have a problem with people giving up on originality because everyone "knows" that Rogue decks don't have a chance. Everything without Rebels, Counterspell, or Fires has no chance? Forgive me if I refuse to believe that, even if Kai "oh darn, I can't draw into the Top Eight" Budde says so.

While the card pool definately rewards using Net Decks, believing that there are only 5 viable deckytpes seems a bit cynical and plain insane. Just because everyone else has determined the decks to beat, does that mean they are right? Oh, yeah, they're pros, and pros are always right. One thing that seems to get little mention is how pros, while they putz around with Rogue decks, have their butts on the line and realize that it's much easier to use an established archtype than take the time to see the forest for the trees. Pardon me for not walking into the slaughterhouse with the rest of the sheep; just because I don't swallow conventional wisdom doesn't mean that I don't have a clue as to what I'm talking about. Although, if you give me enough time, I'll prove my ignorance many times over. Probably. Or not.

So, use Counterspell, Rebels, and Fires or lose? That's the kind of defeatist attitude that will ensure that there are no breakthroughs in deck construction. Well, at least until the pros find something different. I contend that if once you determine that there are only 5 viable decktypes to play, you have conceeded any ideas of overcoming your station; it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I guess I'll need to make the Pro Tour and do very well for people to start believing that they can be more than cookie cutter scrubby versions of the pros. If you are willing to conceed that the pros are right, and the results from PT - Chicago are the end-all be-all of Type 2, then more power to you. But here's to thinking that there is usually more than meets the eye.

Tell Paul Barclay that he needs to use Trix to do well in Extended. He didn't believe it, thus he came up with a new, improved Net Deck for everyone to worry about. And they will. Next year in Extended: Do I play Trix or Full English Breakfast? Oh wait, what about The Life Deck?

Limiting your options, even if that appears to be the obvious right play, is serious bad times. Believing the hype is additional bad times. If it is established that there are only 5 viable decktypes, how can that information not be exploited? If you know what 80% of your opponents will be playing, are you telling me that no one can come up with a way to destroy those who'd rather download their decks than figure out how to beat them?

I contend that there is rarely an environment that can't be beaten (or at least able to be exploited) by thinking outside of the box. While being a cynic has it's fine points, fighting the power and sticking it to the man can work better sometimes. The current Type 2 is one of those times.

John Friggin' Rizzo
 
R

Rando

Guest
Let me let you all in on a little something.

When you finally lose your fear of losing, this game becomes a lot more fun.

Play something crazy, screw it. It's not like anyone acctually makes a living doing this crap anyway. No one's feeding thier children or making the house payment with thier Magic earnings. NO ONE. What happens if a "Pro" does not make top 8 at the PT? They have to live on the street? Little Johnny goes with out his insullin? Give me a break. I'm tired of everyone treating all of this like a life and death event, spinning all of the drama out of proportions.

Ya think we're curing cancer here? Changing the world?

It's just a game for the love of god, and not even a widely popular one.
 
A

Apollo

Guest
Rizzo: Remember, again, that we're casual players. By definition, we don't spend 40 hours a week playtesting. And when we are playing, there's a good chance it's some screwy format that is anything but type II. Therefore, on the off-chance we go to a tournament, our only chance is to use a netdeck. If we don't, we will be using an untuned, untested, pile of dreck. If we use this thing, we will be throwing our entry fee. And many of us wouldn't be attending a type II tournament anyway.

So don't yell at us about NetDecks!

For the most part, you're preaching to the converted.

Now, the sad thing is when no one else can come up with anything different. There are people out there doing everything they can to try to qualify for the pro tour, that are doing all that playtesting. They're the people that the Three-Deuces, Iron Phoenixes, etc. come from. But no one can find a thing. There are so few good cards in the environment that the only decks that stand a chance are centered on them.
 
Z

Zadok001

Guest
There are other options. Scott Lesser of Mindripper and myself are doing some joint work on a B/u/r deck (he calls it Headless Machine, I refer to it as "My Eyes! My Eyes!"). It's very strong, capable of completely obliterating Fires (at last count, Scott was 42-1-1 in matches against Fires, which was probably partially luck, but the deck really does WIN), and it basically destroys Rebels and Rebel varients as well. It has some troubles with U/W decks, running about 45-55 with them, but it's strong enough to do some damage. It has an _extremely_ potent sideboard, with Glacial Walls, Perishes, Tsabo's Decree, and some anti-blue cards from Red.

So there _are_ possible new decks, but they aren't perfect. And with Planeshift, they'll only become more prominent. It's a matter of finding the decks.
 
T

thrasykles

Guest
why stick to type II when it seems boring to you?

I LOVE invasion, i think it's the best expansion since a long time (ok, ok i admit i'm biased, cause i'm a multicolor-card addict:D)

i'm REALLY glad that someone at WotC seems to have remembered that MtG isn't just type II or constructed tourneys in general. invasion has loads of decent cards for casual decks. they make 3-(and even 4 and 5)color decks very playable and there interesting adds for a wide range of theme-decks.

so i CAN'T understand why you at CPA bother about type II!

:eek: or did i get stranded on the MtG-Strategy mail-list??:eek:
 
A

Apollo

Guest
why stick to type II when it seems boring to you?
Actually, I never play type II. But the thread is about Magic websites and why there is very little new content. Much of what these websites talk about is type II, and we were saying that the format does not encourage innovation. Therefore, there is nothing to talk about. We were talking about type II because it relates to the main topic of Magic websites, not because we play it constantly (though I can't speak for Gizmo;)).
 
J

John`O

Guest
Here *some* of the deck types that Kai's
team tried out before PT Chicago

Control Waters
U control + big fliers
GW geddon
BU agenda
mono B control/discard
3 colour merfolk
UW control
BR land destruction
UW rebels
small rebels
UBr control/void
blue skies
red burn
ponza
RG land destruction
UWb control/lobotomy
BW discard/geddon
fires
Wr rebel/burn
Ub nether go
big rebels

of these we thought that only
Fires, Skies, UW control and Big Rebels
were really playable.


John
 
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